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Police vs Railway

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Marx

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Jees......don't give them ideas.

I too thought with all these people chasing this position they are missing a trick....soon they won't. Betta get in quick...window maybve closing

It will go full circle it always does ... look at the Met absolutely struggling like mad to recruit .. if you look at the work force planning page we are in dire straits .. won’t be long till they bung the wages up
 
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galaxynew

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With train driving being so popular I can’t see it being too much longer when TOCs introduce a pay to driver scheme similar to what a lot of airlines are doing at the moment ... they realised they’re were a lot of people wanting to be pilots and could make money off them by getting them to pay the airline for their training and type rating and then employing them as 200 hour first officers Ryan air and easy jet to name but a few ... if TOCs cotton onto the fact there is cash to be made from people wanting to be train drivers I can’t see it being long I’ll they follow the airlines example ..the old bill already fleece new recruits these days for over a grand for their CKP ...
One big difference though............if you could (or were made to) pay to learn to drive a train in order to secure a job with a TOC/FOC where would you do it, all the tracks are managed by Network Rail and therefore very different to flying a plane in the sky. Can you imagine the various routes being clogged up with trains being used by private companies to teach people to drive a train...............will never happen
 

Marx

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One big difference though............if you could (or were made to) pay to learn to drive a train in order to secure a job with a TOC/FOC where would you do it, all the tracks are managed by Network Rail and therefore very different to flying a plane in the sky. Can you imagine the various routes being clogged up with trains being used by private companies to teach people to drive a train...............will never happen

It would be identical to the pay to fly scheme with say for instance Ryan air

So you pay Southeastetn for example 25 grand ( I plucked that figure out of the air) after passing all the tests etc they train you and you drive for them but pay you at a reduced rate .. google pay to fly schemes I’m probably not explaining it very well .. but basically the candidate pays the TOC / airline for their training .. the company makes a profit on this training cost and saved paying for the training while still getting a driver/ pilot
 

Tom Quinne

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One big difference though............if you could (or were made to) pay to learn to drive a train in order to secure a job with a TOC/FOC where would you do it, all the tracks are managed by Network Rail and therefore very different to flying a plane in the sky. Can you imagine the various routes being clogged up with trains being used by private companies to teach people to drive a train...............will never happen

I see it as something like this...

Applicant applies to a train driving training supplier at their own cost of course.
They pay for the assessments and medical exam.

They then go to a foundation rules training scheme again at their own cost.
The extensive use of simulators is used to assesss out of course situations etc.

Traction training could also be undertaken at the foundation rules training supplier using 1:1 mock ups.

There is a move to route learn via DVD (DB use this in some cases) an extreme could result in this being widely used.

Ideally a candidate would pass out of the training scheme rules ready, the TOC would then take up training in traction and/routes before final pass out.

I think the only thing stopping this is TOCs obsession in covering their own arses, some TOCs won’t accept a drivers route knowledge!
We had a ex SWT driver at GWR who signed Portsmouth to Bristol with SWT, GWR wouldn’t accept it!
 

Marx

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A mate just posted this on FB very very accurate for those thinking of joining the police

This is the words of a high ranking serving member of the Met police who wishes to remain anonymous as they are retiring this year.
Certainly makes for good reading.

'Just been reading your post re mopeds, stabbings etc and the associated comments.
As you know I’ve been a copper for over 30 years & in fact I retire on 31/7.
I and my colleagues do our best under trying circumstances, often without support from our political masters, our own bosses and the great British public.
Several massive events have shaped the way policing happens particularly here in London.
1. Stop & search. When I was a young copper every group of youths you saw got searched. It was done as a crime prevention tool, the reasoning behind it was simple, if they know we’ll search them they won’t carry. There were a lot less stabbings as a result.
2. Stephen Lawrence. The unfortunate circumstances around what happened to this lad were seized upon by radical lawyers, politicians and those with an ax to grind about the Met. We didn’t kill him and did our best to save his life and catch those responsible but that wasn’t enough. As a result of the fall out our top brass lost their nerve and tried to stop any form of indiscriminate stop & search once that **** McPherson branded us institutionally racist.
3. Elected mayor & police commissioners. I joined an apolitical organisation in which you were not allowed to be a member of any political party, take an active part in political debate and the only group you could join was the police federation. Now we are the pawn of the mayor who can hire or fire the senior ranks as he sees fit. Ergo the already flakey top brass have become politically motivated and do whatever the mayor bids. As a result we spin around trying to sort politically motivated problems and things like homophobic, race and other vested interest crimes are top of the list, receive the Rolls Royce treatment and every other Londoner can go **** themselves.
4. Recruitment. The training school I attended at Hendon removed new recruits from home, made them work as a team and gave you a solid grounding in law. You transformed from civvie to copper and everyone knew who they were come pass out day.
Now that has gone, closed in 2009 & demolished last year. New recruits are indoctrinated in ultra left wing ideals by instructors who have never served much less stand up to a knife wielding thug. The whole recruiting ethos has shifted towards college educated children rather than people who’ve done something real. As a result they are generally ignorant of the law, self opinionated, lazy, slovenly and useless.
5. Promotion. The police have always recognised talent and those with a degree could enter the accelerated promotion scheme but only after 2 years on the beat.
Now school children are entering the job on schemes that allow them to reach inspector within two years. They know nothing and nobody respects them. We are also allowing people to join as a superintendent again with no qualification or ability to do the job. Now we are told that ordinary people like me with A levels and real life experience will be lucky to reach sergeant. Moral notwithstanding, one of the basic principle of Robert Peels vision was that every constable had a commissioners baton in his locker. What’s worse is the system for promotion involves bugging yourself up to the point of fantasy. Everyone knows it but nothing is done. Those who work the streets don’t have the time to fill out the paperwork so the majority getting promoted are office dwelling ****tards
6. Police stations. The rate at which we have retreated from the public by closing nicks is heartbreaking. Driving around seeing once proud police stations boarded up, vandalised and for sale disgusts me. Our bosses justify this by saying demand for counter use has dropped whilst on line contact has trebled. Duh.... if you close police stations of course less people use them. We are increasingly being housed in ****ty ex warehouses without canteen facilities and no transport links and as a result the public don’t see us. We should be in the public domain.
7. Pressure groups. When I joined there was one federation. Now every group except white heterosexual males have their own group and each shouts louder than the other pressing for an advantage. Also it’s become clear to some that the best way to climb the ladder is to forget street policing and become a champion for gay, black or female officers. The worst thing you can do is dedicate yourself to dealing with crime because that means confronting slags, allegations of racism/homophobia/sexism which could hold you back.....
8. The public. Everyone and their brother has an opinion about us, most are hostile and unlike when I was young in service, when complaints were seen as evidence of a busy copper, complaints are used against you. Through fear and weakness coppers are now shying away from confrontation as certain sections of society shout racist/islamist/sexist/homophobe etc and as we know it’s impossible to deny those allegations and they requires no real proof. Once a dog has a bad name it sticks.'

- By R
 

tiptoptaff

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2,981
I think the only thing stopping this is TOCs obsession in covering their own arses, some TOCs won’t accept a drivers route knowledge!
We had a ex SWT driver at GWR who signed Portsmouth to Bristol with SWT, GWR wouldn’t accept it!
ASLEF is the issue here, and the fact that certain depot to "retain" knowledge you'd have to enter in a higher link, and they won't have that. ASLEF will not allow drivers to keep knowledge outside of their link. A prime example being Reading where Link1 drivers lose the Marlow and Twyford branches, as they don't have booked work on it, despite it being regarded as a bottom link "core" route.
 

Tom Quinne

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Joined
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Messages
2,225
A mate just posted this on FB very very accurate for those thinking of joining the police

This is the words of a high ranking serving member of the Met police who wishes to remain anonymous as they are retiring this year.
Certainly makes for good reading.

'Just been reading your post re mopeds, stabbings etc and the associated comments.
As you know I’ve been a copper for over 30 years & in fact I retire on 31/7.
I and my colleagues do our best under trying circumstances, often without support from our political masters, our own bosses and the great British public.
Several massive events have shaped the way policing happens particularly here in London.
1. Stop & search. When I was a young copper every group of youths you saw got searched. It was done as a crime prevention tool, the reasoning behind it was simple, if they know we’ll search them they won’t carry. There were a lot less stabbings as a result.
2. Stephen Lawrence. The unfortunate circumstances around what happened to this lad were seized upon by radical lawyers, politicians and those with an ax to grind about the Met. We didn’t kill him and did our best to save his life and catch those responsible but that wasn’t enough. As a result of the fall out our top brass lost their nerve and tried to stop any form of indiscriminate stop & search once that **** McPherson branded us institutionally racist.
3. Elected mayor & police commissioners. I joined an apolitical organisation in which you were not allowed to be a member of any political party, take an active part in political debate and the only group you could join was the police federation. Now we are the pawn of the mayor who can hire or fire the senior ranks as he sees fit. Ergo the already flakey top brass have become politically motivated and do whatever the mayor bids. As a result we spin around trying to sort politically motivated problems and things like homophobic, race and other vested interest crimes are top of the list, receive the Rolls Royce treatment and every other Londoner can go **** themselves.
4. Recruitment. The training school I attended at Hendon removed new recruits from home, made them work as a team and gave you a solid grounding in law. You transformed from civvie to copper and everyone knew who they were come pass out day.
Now that has gone, closed in 2009 & demolished last year. New recruits are indoctrinated in ultra left wing ideals by instructors who have never served much less stand up to a knife wielding thug. The whole recruiting ethos has shifted towards college educated children rather than people who’ve done something real. As a result they are generally ignorant of the law, self opinionated, lazy, slovenly and useless.
5. Promotion. The police have always recognised talent and those with a degree could enter the accelerated promotion scheme but only after 2 years on the beat.
Now school children are entering the job on schemes that allow them to reach inspector within two years. They know nothing and nobody respects them. We are also allowing people to join as a superintendent again with no qualification or ability to do the job. Now we are told that ordinary people like me with A levels and real life experience will be lucky to reach sergeant. Moral notwithstanding, one of the basic principle of Robert Peels vision was that every constable had a commissioners baton in his locker. What’s worse is the system for promotion involves bugging yourself up to the point of fantasy. Everyone knows it but nothing is done. Those who work the streets don’t have the time to fill out the paperwork so the majority getting promoted are office dwelling ****tards
6. Police stations. The rate at which we have retreated from the public by closing nicks is heartbreaking. Driving around seeing once proud police stations boarded up, vandalised and for sale disgusts me. Our bosses justify this by saying demand for counter use has dropped whilst on line contact has trebled. Duh.... if you close police stations of course less people use them. We are increasingly being housed in ****ty ex warehouses without canteen facilities and no transport links and as a result the public don’t see us. We should be in the public domain.
7. Pressure groups. When I joined there was one federation. Now every group except white heterosexual males have their own group and each shouts louder than the other pressing for an advantage. Also it’s become clear to some that the best way to climb the ladder is to forget street policing and become a champion for gay, black or female officers. The worst thing you can do is dedicate yourself to dealing with crime because that means confronting slags, allegations of racism/homophobia/sexism which could hold you back.....
8. The public. Everyone and their brother has an opinion about us, most are hostile and unlike when I was young in service, when complaints were seen as evidence of a busy copper, complaints are used against you. Through fear and weakness coppers are now shying away from confrontation as certain sections of society shout racist/islamist/sexist/homophobe etc and as we know it’s impossible to deny those allegations and they requires no real proof. Once a dog has a bad name it sticks.'

- By R

Jesus, what a sad state our once proud police force has sunk to. Railway is it then, without question or second thought !
 

Tom Quinne

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ASLEF is the issue here, and the fact that certain depot to "retain" knowledge you'd have to enter in a higher link, and they won't have that. ASLEF will not allow drivers to keep knowledge outside of their link. A prime example being Reading where Link1 drivers lose the Marlow and Twyford branches, as they don't have booked work on it, despite it being regarded as a bottom link "core" route.

I’m 100% in favour of unions, but I can’t help but think sometimes they do stifle productively and morale among members - what’s worst than being captive on two or three routes !
 

Dave_blood

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Messages
15
I read that snippet too. And unfortunately that paints a very accurate picture of the current state of The Met. I cant speak for other counties, but The Met is in absolute disarray. I know Essex arent in much better shape either.
 

Marx

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I read that snippet too. And unfortunately that paints a very accurate picture of the current state of The Met. I cant speak for other counties, but The Met is in absolute disarray. I know Essex arent in much better shape either.

The job as they say is Fu@#ed
 

Peeler

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8 Mar 2019
Messages
92
Well this thread was certainly uplifting! :D

I currently serve in policing and have done so for 17 years. It was my dream job and nothing or no one could have talked me out from joining so I am not going to do the same here. The experiences however that people have shared are accurate...…..

All I would say, much like some of the roles in the rail industry, you cannot go into it with doubts. The job will eat you alive and spit you out with no regard. It's tougher than it ever used to be. The demand and responsibilities are greater and the risks and rewards uneven. It is still however a job like no other. I have laughed hard and cried at times, harder. I've been in surreal situations like forming a line inches away from the Queen to being covered in someone's blood as I work desperately to save their life. It is a privilege to serve and the things I have personality experienced will be unmatched in any other walk of life...…..but yes I too am here because I feel it is time to move on. It's not the job I joined anymore and I don' think it will ever go back to being the job I so passionately loved.

Listen to the advice of others but ultimately the decision will be yours. Good luck.
 

tiptoptaff

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2,981
I’m 100% in favour of unions, but I can’t help but think sometimes they do stifle productively and morale among members - what’s worst than being captive on two or three routes !

You have 2 groups of drivers. (and any other unionised frontline grade on the railway) The ultra-trade unionists who'd kill their nan if their union told them to, and those who know they're in it for themselves and pay the 30quid a month as nothing more insurance policy and expensive diary.
 

387star

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Jesus, what a sad state our once proud police force has sunk to. Railway is it then, without question or second thought !
Yes this toxic out of touch Tory government has left a trail of destruction
 

Salop-lad82

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Left the Police after 16 years. I finished in a very sought after role as a DC on the regional serious organised crime unit. The team I was with were fab, and I will miss SOME of the people. But as yourself if you want to work and live with so many restrictions and consequences if you make a genuine decision in a split second. Yet some 9 to 5 desk dweller makes the decision you made an error and you could face losing your job, or worse prison... as a cop you are everyone's political whip, and I can honestly say it went from a job I loved to a stressful horrendous job, where you were genuinely concerned there was a risk you may not come home. Pay and co editions hammered and expected to do 5 times as much work as the cuts have really taken hold. Trust me when I say seriously consider joining the Police. It isn't the career it uses to be.... But I'm loving my new life on "civvie" street....
 

Peeler

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Messages
92
Left the Police after 16 years. I finished in a very sought after role as a DC on the regional serious organised crime unit. The team I was with were fab, and I will miss SOME of the people. But as yourself if you want to work and live with so many restrictions and consequences if you make a genuine decision in a split second. Yet some 9 to 5 desk dweller makes the decision you made an error and you could face losing your job, or worse prison... as a cop you are everyone's political whip, and I can honestly say it went from a job I loved to a stressful horrendous job, where you were genuinely concerned there was a risk you may not come home. Pay and co editions hammered and expected to do 5 times as much work as the cuts have really taken hold. Trust me when I say seriously consider joining the Police. It isn't the career it uses to be.... But I'm loving my new life on "civvie" street....

What did you fall in to doing mate?
 

Salop-lad82

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What did you fall in to doing mate?

I'm currently 4 months into my training to become a driver with a Freight Company. Even more of a perk is I have no passengers to worry about. Passed all my rules and Loco assessments. Start my driving hours in April...
 

fgwrich

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It will go full circle it always does ... look at the Met absolutely struggling like mad to recruit .. if you look at the work force planning page we are in dire straits .. won’t be long till they bung the wages up

They may be struggling to recruit from outside, but I know that they're doing well to recruit from other forces with a fair few getting hammered at the moment.

That said, thanks everyone for your replies so far. It's certainly a thread I'm following with interest as I'm considering a change of career or position myself soon, once my probation is up.
 

Marx

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Might be a a few transferring into the Met but there’s equal amount if not more transferring out ... have a look at the work force deployment figures they are scary ... couple of months ago he MET decided to compulsory transfer 60 DC from south to north London ... Surrey police a day later had about 30 applications from met DCs wanting to transfer
 

whoosh

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"Your the seventh Met Police Officer I've had in here in the last week for a Train Driver medical." - Occupational Health Doctor to one of my now colleagues.
Says it all!




It would be identical to the pay to fly scheme with say for instance Ryan air

So you pay Southeastetn for example 25 grand ( I plucked that figure out of the air) after passing all the tests etc they train you and you drive for them but pay you at a reduced rate .. google pay to fly schemes I’m probably not explaining it very well .. but basically the candidate pays the TOC / airline for their training .. the company makes a profit on this training cost and saved paying for the training while still getting a driver/ pilot

Must be resisted at every level. At the moment you can be a Mother returning to the full-time workplace, and be paid as a trainee, with no financial outlay. A single mother even. Or a Father who has been widowed and now the kids are older and you can now work full time hours at all times of the day again.
That sort of opportunity doesn't exist in many rôles in other industries. Trainee Train Driver is a job that is currently open to people from all walks of life, and financial barriers of trainees paying for their own training would make it for the elite and the railway would be worse off for it.
 

STEVIEBOY1

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I'm currently 4 months into my training to become a driver with a Freight Company. Even more of a perk is I have no passengers to worry about. Passed all my rules and Loco assessments. Start my driving hours in April...

Sounds great, (Especially having No Passengers<D).Good luck.
 

zoo

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The retention rates is so awful now in the Met....

I remember the days where there was a 2-3 year waiting to join the police. They said you could only join as a Special before moving onto to becoming a regular officer. How things have changed!
 

Topcat999

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Left the Police after 16 years. I finished in a very sought after role as a DC on the regional serious organised crime unit. The team I was with were fab, and I will miss SOME of the people. But as yourself if you want to work and live with so many restrictions and consequences if you make a genuine decision in a split second. Yet some 9 to 5 desk dweller makes the decision you made an error and you could face losing your job, or worse prison... as a cop you are everyone's political whip, and I can honestly say it went from a job I loved to a stressful horrendous job, where you were genuinely concerned there was a risk you may not come home. Pay and co editions hammered and expected to do 5 times as much work as the cuts have really taken hold. Trust me when I say seriously consider joining the Police. It isn't the career it uses to be.... But I'm loving my new life on "civvie" street....
train too is in that situation. One bad error an grave consequences.
 

Salop-lad82

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The retention rates is so awful now in the Met....

I remember the days where there was a 2-3 year waiting to join the police. They said you could only join as a Special before moving onto to becoming a regular officer. How things have changed!

A lad on the course I'm on is ex army. His mate applied to the Police but didnt pass. They wrote to him a month ago saying that they would now offer him a position.
 
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Junk_girl

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54
A lad on the course I'm on is ex army. His mate applied to the Police but didnt pass. They wrote to him a mo th ago saying that they would now offer him a position.


They are desperate!! Actually hilarious.

Good for the guys pal but just the organisation as a whole is a joke!! Tell him NOT to do it lol
 

Salop-lad82

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Joined
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Messages
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They are desperate!! Actually hilarious.

Good for the guys pal but just the organisation as a whole is a joke!! Tell him NOT to do it lol

Oh trust me he had a very honest view point given... followed by.... "but he will have make his own decision..... or mistake"
 
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