Political Labels

[DarloRich]

Can I ask a serious question about the political labels in your poll. You appear to have disregarded the following:-

Scottish Nationalist.....quite different to the bland one named in the poll
Plaid Cymru
Democratic Unionist
Sinn Fein
Alliance
Ulster Unionist.

These are all fully accredited political parties.

but they only represent the rubbish bits of England so they don't really count

 

[backontrack]

Can I ask a serious question about the political labels in your poll. You appear to have disregarded the following:-

Scottish Nationalist.....quite different to the bland one named in the poll
Plaid Cymru
Democratic Unionist
Sinn Fein
Alliance
Ulster Unionist.

These are all fully accredited political parties.

Sinn Fein isn't a political label. Labour doesn't appear either, actually.

Scottish Nationalist, Welsh Nationalist, Irish Nationalist and Irish Unionist could all be added if this is multiple choice. I didn't know that it was, but...

 

[Gutfright]

I find nationalists bizarre. Identifying themselves purely on the basis of where they happen to have been born seems strange to me. Where they happen to have been born must encompass all kinds of different people whom they probably don't agree with. Anyway. Just my opinion. Ha ha.

I happen to agree wholeheartedly!

Can I ask a serious question about the political labels in your poll. You appear to have disregarded the following:-

Scottish Nationalist.....quite different to the bland one named in the poll
Plaid Cymru
Democratic Unionist
Sinn Fein
Alliance
Ulster Unionist.

These are all fully accredited political parties.

The idea behind the poll was to state which political ideologies people hold, rather than just which party they vote for come election time. It's often a subtle difference but it is an important one (one may be a conservative without necessarily being on board with everything the Conservative Party do, for instance).

However I do agree the poll could have done with a few more options. 'Unionist' and 'Feminist' perhaps? Anyone else have any suggestions?

Sinn Fein isn't a political label. Labour doesn't appear either, actually.

Scottish Nationalist, Welsh Nationalist, Irish Nationalist and Irish Unionist could all be added if this is multiple choice. I didn't know that it was, but...

According to the back of their membership cards, Labour is a democratic socialist party.

I could have added Scottish/ Welsh/ Irish/ English Nationalist as well as Cornish/ Yorkshire Separatist, White/ Black supremacist etc etc, but I wanted to keep the options as broad as possible. If anything only to avoid typing out a million different options.

 

[backontrack]

Perhaps just start another thread with more choices in the poll? And make it clearer that it's multiple choice?

I am male, but I consider myself a feminist.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

According to the back of their membership cards, Labour is a democratic socialist party.

The word "democratic" is often cynically misued, as from 1949 to 1960, East Germany referred to itself as that of Deutsche Demokratische Republik (The German Democratic Republic) which made you wander what sort of democracy they practiced there....

 

[Gutfright]

Perhaps just start another thread with more choices in the poll? And make it clearer that it's multiple choice?

I am male, but I consider myself a feminist.

Yeah perhaps. We could use this thread to crowdsource a few more ideas for categories...

Unionist?
Republican (might be tricky as it means different things to Irish and American people)
Feminist?
Ethno-nationalist (I believe this is what BNP types use as code for 'racist')?
Egalitarian? Nihilist? Are these political or philosophical beliefs?
Monarchist? Some of the most stable, content countries in the world are Monarchies eg Sweden and the Netherlands.

Any more for any more?

The word "democratic" is often cynically misued, as from 1949 to 1960, East Germany referred to itself as that of Deutsche Demokratische Republik (The German Democratic Republic) which made you wander what sort of democracy they practiced there....

Not to mention the DPRK - the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Aka North Korea.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Are we blurring the border between political beliefs and personally-held beliefs, when terms such as "feminist" are used?

 

[Gutfright]

Are we blurring the border between political beliefs and personally-held beliefs, when terms such as "feminist" are used?

I fear we may be. Although I suppose feminist beliefs such as all-female shortlists/ quotas etc could be seen as political beliefs?

 

[backontrack]

The word "democratic" is often cynically misued, as from 1949 to 1960, East Germany referred to itself as that of Deutsche Demokratische Republik (The German Democratic Republic) which made you wander what sort of democracy they practiced there....

The Nazi party certainly wasn't socialist, either. You can debate Hitler's other policies but I don't think socialism comes into it...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If we have communist, then should we have capitalist?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If we have communist, then should we have capitalist?

Well, that's very kind of you. Had that choice so been available when I voted, I could well have used "Capitalist" instead of "Conservative".

Still, I'll go with anything that "conserves my capital", so to speak.

 

[backontrack]

I just thought that it was the opposite of communism. Capitalism, meanwhile, I don't get along with, but I'm not a communist either. I believe in money and lives for everyone, and I want the big corporations to pay what they should.

 

[Barn]

(and I ticked 'democratic socialist' too since I don't see any difference between that and 'socialist')

Democratic socialism is contrasted with revolutionary socialism in that the former believes in using existing democratic structures (i.e. voting) to get its way.

 

[backontrack]

Democratic socialism is contrasted with revolutionary socialism in that the former believes in using existing democratic structures (i.e. voting) to get its way.

But Socialist isn't the same as Revolutionary Socialist.

 

[Barn]

But Socialist isn't the same as Revolutionary Socialist.

Indeed not. Interesting that, at the time of writing, there are two Socialists that are not Democratic Socialists though.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But Socialist isn't the same as Revolutionary Socialist.

I fear the past quoted example of the Judean People's Front and the People's Front of Judea may well follow the same line of reasoning. Words are just what people wish them to convey to suit them, in certain states even more so, as in the two cases of the word "Democratic" that appear in the titles of both East Germany and North Korea that have already been quoted on this thread.

 

[backontrack]

I fear the past quoted example of the Judean People's Front and the People's Front of Judea may well follow the same line of reasoning. Words are just what people wish them to convey to suit them, in certain states even more so, as in the two cases of the word "Democratic" that appear in the titles of both East Germany and North Korea that have already been quoted on this thread.

So, just because I'm a socialist, I'm a revolutionary socialist?

That's not true.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed not. Interesting that, at the time of writing, there are two Socialists that are not Democratic Socialists though.

To be fair, I didn't know that the poll was multiple choice, otherwise I would also have ticked Democratic Socialist (and Environmentalist).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I fear the past quoted example of the Judean People's Front and the People's Front of Judea may well follow the same line of reasoning. Words are just what people wish them to convey to suit them, in certain states even more so, as in the two cases of the word "Democratic" that appear in the titles of both East Germany and North Korea that have already been quoted on this thread.

This seems a bit of a red herring to me. Yes, it's not uncommon for unpleasant dictatorships to seek to cover up their unpleasantness by describing themselves in terms like 'democratic' when clearly they are anything but democratic. But realistically, for the purposes of this survey, I think you'd have to accept that the terms have the meanings that would be generally understood by most politically aware people in the UK. And by that measure, the meaning of 'democratic socialist' is clearly nothing like what goes on in North Korea or went on in East Germany. I would imagine that almost no one in the UK who self-identifies as 'democratic socialist' would be thinking of either of those countries.

(The same applies to other terms. 'liberal' for example, as understood in the UK, means nothing remotely like what the Australian Liberal Party appears to stand for, and I imagine most people here in the UK who label themselves as Conservative would be horrified at what many 'Conservatives' in the US stand for).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To be fair, I didn't know that the poll was multiple choice, otherwise I would also have ticked Democratic Socialist (and Environmentalist).

The forum software doesn't seem to make it very obvious for polls. I only realized it was multiple choice because I noticed that the options were displayed as checkboxes rather than the normal radio buttons, which made me suspect it was multiple choice. But I'm a computer programmer, so I'm in a good position to notice those things. I don't think non-programmers could be reasonably expected to notice that kind of difference (I emphasize this is a criticism of the software that the polls are based on, NOT the person who set up this particular poll, who obviously wouldn't have known either)

 

[Barn]

and I imagine most people here in the UK who label themselves as Conservative would be horrified at what many 'Conservatives' in the US stand for

Amen to that! I know several Conservative Party members who went to the US to campaign for Obama.

 

[backontrack]

I wonder what Tony Blair would say in this thread...

 

[Barn]

I wonder what Tony Blair would say in this thread...

He had a bit of an allergy to the 'S word' and if pushed would tend to describe himself as a 'progressive'.

In practice (putting aside Iraq), he claimed the centre ground and made the Conservatives look like they were a fringe rightist party. Lots of centrists like me voted for New Labour.

The centre ground is now really claimed by the Cameron ('heir to Blair') mainstream of the Conservative party, with Labour currently appearing as a fringe leftist party.

I'm sure the pendulum will swing back and forward a few more times in our lives.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So, just because I'm a socialist, I'm a revolutionary socialist?

Heavens above, no such slight would ever be made in that direction by me. Are you confusing a posting made by Barn ?

 

[backontrack]

Possibly.

Permission to create a new thread with new poll?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The centre ground is now really claimed by the Cameron ('heir to Blair') mainstream of the Conservative party, with Labour currently appearing as a fringe leftist party.

That is because those in the Labour Party who felt that left wing section of the Labour Party had been sidelined during the terms of the Blair leadership that followed on from years of Conservative government have either learnt nothing from the events of the late 1970's...remember the "Winter of Discontent" and "Crisis, what crisis".....or are just hoping those events are now either distant memories to older people or not even known by younger people.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Permission to create a new thread with new poll?

Are you going to ask the forum staff to now close this one at the same time? I am not sure of the forum protocol that is involved.

 

[backontrack]

It was really aimed at Gutfright.

 

[Gutfright]

If we have communist, then should we have capitalist?

It could be argued that, apart from anarchism, every ideology stated in the poll is a form of capitalism. Even the so-called Communist governments of countries like China and Cuba are in reality a form of "state capitalism".

The state capitalism, which is one of the principal aspects of the New Economic Policy, is, under Soviet power, a form of capitalism that is deliberately permitted and restricted by the working class. Our state capitalism differs essentially from the state capitalism in countries that have bourgeois governments in that the state with us is represented not by the bourgeoisie, but by the proletariat, who has succeeded in winning the full confidence of the peasantry.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

The centre ground is now really claimed by the Cameron ('heir to Blair') mainstream of the Conservative party, with Labour currently appearing as a fringe leftist party.

If this myth is repeated often enough by the right-wing press then I suppose that gullible people might believe it. A government that is rolling back the Welfare state to a degree that even Thatcher couldn't envisage is hardly 'centrist'. Cameron might claim the centre ground...doesn't mean that it is his!

 

[Barn]

If this myth is repeated often enough by the right-wing press then I suppose that gullible people might believe it. A government that is rolling back the Welfare state to a degree that even Thatcher couldn't envisage is hardly 'centrist'. Cameron might claim the centre ground...doesn't mean that it is his!

My own belief is that only the party in command of the centre ground will win an election in today's Britain. As much as you might dislike welfare reform, things like the benefits cap and child benefit changes enjoyed widespread public support - not necessarily among the Twitterarti but certainly among the electorate. Even the 'bedroom tax' only divided opinion fairly evenly.

The recent disability payment proposals were far less popular and I'm glad they were dropped. Too many reforms like that and Cameron may lose the centre ground that he currently inhabits. A decent Labour leader could have made much more of that error.

 

[Gutfright]

Possibly.

Permission to create a new thread with new poll?

Out of interest, which categories would you use?

Would you break down anarchist into 'individualist anarchist' and 'social anarchist' which could be further broken down into anarcho-communist and anarcho-syndicalist?

Would you break conservative down into 'neoconservative' and 'paleoconservative'? Where would the Alt Right fit in?

Instead of just communist, will people be able to select Marxist, Leninist, Trotskyite, Maoist etc etc?

If you include feminism, would you also include MRAs and MGTOW for balance?

If I can offer one piece of advice it's this: Don't start a poll without first thinking really hard about what options you'll have.

 

[me123]

Out of the above, I'd say a democratic libertarian socialist, and have picked the corresponding options to construct that.

I'm sure people may wonder why I've not picked nationalist, given my obvious views on the matter. Whilst I am a Scottish Nationalist (i.e. I believe that Scotland should be an independent country), I would not say that I would be a nationalist in a more general sense. To take one definition:

"Nationalism, ideology based on the premise that the individual's loyalty and devotion to the nation-state surpass other individual or group interests."

My nationalist view is not simply out of loyalty to my country, but my belief that Scotland would benefit from being autonomous. However, the principles that guide that view would be derived from my overall stance. So, it is a part of my identity, but I wouldn't say that it was a core descriptor for my own views.

 

[backontrack]

Out of interest, which categories would you use?

Would you break down anarchist into 'individualist anarchist' and 'social anarchist' which could be further broken down into anarcho-communist and anarcho-syndicalist?

Would you break conservative down into 'neoconservative' and 'paleoconservative'? Where would the Alt Right fit in?

Instead of just communist, will people be able to select Marxist, Leninist, Trotskyite, Maoist etc etc?

If you include feminism, would you also include MRAs and MGTOW for balance?

If I can offer one piece of advice it's this: Don't start a poll without first thinking really hard about what options you'll have.

Can I involve supremacist and Ku Klux Klan?