Poll: Potential General Election: who are you voting for?

[najaB]

We'll never know.

Which is a strong argument for a confirmatory vote on the terms of our leaving the EU.

I find it so ironic that those who hold out that "the will of the people"* is being thwarted argue so strongly against giving "the people" another chance to express their "clear desire to leave". It's almost as if they're afraid that the vote would go the other way. But that can be so, surely?

*Well, of 38% of "the people".

 

[edwin_m]

A non-vote isn't a vote for leave, either. It's a non vote. Their views literally don't count, unless they turned up on polling day and spoiled their ballot papers. You can't assume that anyone who was registered to vote and didn't would automatically vote one way or the other. We'll never know.

It's natural to expect that people who are happy with the status quo will be less inclined to go out and vote than people who want to change it. But unlike certain others I'm not making any assumptions about what the people think. I'm suggesting we go and ask them.

 

[edwin_m]

Your allegiance to the Liberal Democrats is commendable. I hope they don't sucker punch you like they did to others in 2010. These people are going to let you down, be ready for that.

If that was a sucker punch, how would you describe the behavior of the current so-called government?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It's BLINDINGLY obvious what's happening

Your allegiance to the Liberal Democrats is commendable. I hope they don't sucker punch you like they did to others in 2010. These people are going to let you down, be ready for that.

Err - thanks, but I'm a Labour supporter, so I'm not sure what allegiance to the Liberal Democrats you're referring to. And I also have no idea what that has to with my point that you'd misrepresented what happened since the referendum.

 

[Esker-pades]

@StaffsWCML - Re. your comments about Jeremy Corbyn lying about not being able to find a seat on a VTEC train ("traingate")

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41036937

New footage has been published of the "traingate" journey that triggered a row involving Jeremy Corbyn and Sir Richard Branson last year.

A year ago, Mr Corbyn was filmed sitting on the floor of a train he said was "ram-packed".

Virgin Trains then released CCTV images and footage it said showed the Labour leader walking past empty seats.

In the newly-released CCTV, people can be seen sitting on the floor between the carriages.

It was released by pro-Corbyn filmmaker Yannis Mendez, whose original film of the Labour leader sitting on the floor sparked the debate.

Mr Mendez made a request to Virgin for the CCTV in which he featured, and it has now been published by his Double Down News company.

The clash between the rail operator and Mr Corbyn's team took place during last summer's Labour leadership contest.

After Mr Corbyn used the overcrowding on the service to make his case for rail renationalisation, Virgin responded, saying he had walked past available seats and managed to find somewhere to sit later on.

On social media, where it has been shared thousands of times, supporters of the Labour leader have said the latest film backs up his comments about overcrowding on the London to Newcastle service.

"These are the CCTV clips Richard Branson didn't show you," the voiceover says, to footage of people sitting and lying on the floor between carriages.

The film also highlights that people could be seen sitting in some - although not all - of the apparently empty seats Mr Corbyn walked past.

I would have agreed with your assertion that Corbyn lied on the specific issue in August 2016. However, given this information from 1 year later, I do not agree. It is certainly a shaky one to use as evidence of Corbyn being a liar.

 

[GrimShady]

It's also not a vote to leave, which is exactly the point - those people who didn't vote the first time around deserve to have a chance to have their voices heard now.

A non-vote isn't a vote for leave, either. It's a non vote. Their views literally don't count, unless they turned up on polling day and spoiled their ballot papers. You can't assume that anyone who was registered to vote and didn't would automatically vote one way or the other. We'll never know.

At no stage have I said those who never voted, voted to leave.

 

[GrimShady]

Err - thanks, but I'm a Labour supporter, so I'm not sure what allegiance to the Liberal Democrats you're referring to. And I also have no idea what that has to with my point that you'd misrepresented what happened since the referendum.

Well.....what can I say. Yikes!

If that was a sucker punch, how would you describe the behavior of the current so-called government?

Regardless of how the current government have behaved, and yes it has been shocking, what they did was pretty low. I'm really struggling to understand people who defend them.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Well.....what can I say. Yikes!

Well that post has totally blown me away with the insightful logical analysis. I bow to the careful reasoning with which you've made your arguments there.

 

[GrimShady]

Well that post has totally blown me away with the insightful logical analysis. I bow to the careful reasoning with which you've made your arguments there.

Lol, I would have thought that an "insightful logical analysis" wouldn't be required given Labours track record since the 1997 election, "Careful reasoning" doesn't seem to be something they're capable of.

Each to their own I suppose.

 

[AlterEgo]

Momentum ideologues are bidding to abolish Tom Watson's deputy leader post in a bid to make the party purer, smaller and less electable. Sounds like a cracking idea. In ten years the Lib Dems will have totally overtaken Labour, if the hardline socialists keep running the party further into the ditch for the sake of their ideological purity (the ideology of Corbynism is also completely warped, anyway, so no great loss).

That raises another question - when will we become a true democracy ?? We will remain a shamocracy until Batty Boris or other PMs are prevented from packing the House of Lords with loads of cronies to ensure they can get legislation through that house.

What would you consider to be a true democracy?

 

[najaB]

In ten years the Lib Dems will have totally overtaken Labour, if the hardline socialists keep running the party further into the ditch for the sake of their ideological purity (the ideology of Corbynism is also completely warped, anyway, so no great loss).

They're already polling one or two percent ahead of Labour according to a news story I read yesterday.

 

[edwin_m]

Momentum ideologues are bidding to abolish Tom Watson's deputy leader post in a bid to make the party purer, smaller and less electable. Sounds like a cracking idea. In ten years the Lib Dems will have totally overtaken Labour, if the hardline socialists keep running the party further into the ditch for the sake of their ideological purity (the ideology of Corbynism is also completely warped, anyway, so no great loss).

Since apparently converted to a review of the deputy's role which cynically speaking will probably result in it being abolished in a few months at a time they expect nobody to notice.

Just when Corbyn was starting to get a bit of credibility after working with other parties and failing to fall into the Boris trap on the early election, the people around him seem to be going out of their way to render him unelectable.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Since apparently converted to a review of the deputy's role which cynically speaking will probably result in it being abolished in a few months at a time they expect nobody to notice.

Just when Corbyn was starting to get a bit of credibility after working with other parties and failing to fall into the Boris trap on the early election, the people around him seem to be going out of their way to render him unelectable.

Actually, I would say this is probably to Corbyn's credit that he's put a stop the immediate attempt to oust Watson. There has been a long-going campaign by many online left-wing 'influencers' (in other words, bloggers) and some activists to get rid of Watson - which is really what this is about. You can speculate on the reasons for it, but I would say it's largely down to Watson being very vocal about some of his policy disagreements with Corbyn, a sense by some people that that isn't appropriate for a deputy leader, and a paranoia by many people on the left that everyone is out to undermine Corbyn - which tends to lead to some intolerance by some people on the left of more moderate views. Personally I think the whole campaign against Watson is pretty atrocious, and this way of getting rid of the deputy leader is manipulative and utterly appalling. But I don't see any reason to think Corbyn himself has anything to do it. I think it's more by nature of a grassroots thing that's been going on without any particular approval from the leadership: And it's been fairly common the last few years that many of Corbyn's followers show rather less tolerance than Corbyn himself does - and this seems to me a good example of that.

 

[Kite159]

Actually, I would say this is probably to Corbyn's credit that he's put a stop the immediate attempt to oust Watson. There has been a long-going campaign by many online left-wing 'influencers' (in other words, bloggers) and some activists to get rid of Watson - which is really what this is about. You can speculate on the reasons for it, but I would say it's largely down to Watson being very vocal about some of his policy disagreements with Corbyn, a sense by some people that that isn't appropriate for a deputy leader, and a paranoia by many people on the left that everyone is out to undermine Corbyn - which tends to lead to some intolerance by some people on the left of more moderate views. Personally I think the whole campaign against Watson is pretty atrocious, and this way of getting rid of the deputy leader is manipulative and utterly appalling. But I don't see any reason to think Corbyn himself has anything to do it. I think it's more by nature of a grassroots thing that's been going on without any particular approval from the leadership: And it's been fairly common the last few years that many of Corbyn's followers show rather less tolerance than Corbyn himself does - and this seems to me a good example of that.

Looks like it's more a case of the puppet masters behind Corbyn overstepped the mark.

Probably won't be long until Tom decides enough is enough and jumps ship taking some more MPs with him

 

[najaB]

Probably won't be long until Tom decides enough is enough and jumps ship taking some more MPs with him

I'd like to think he would try to orchestrate a leadership challenge first, even if he knows it's unlikely to get anywhere.

 

[edwin_m]

Actually, I would say this is probably to Corbyn's credit that he's put a stop the immediate attempt to oust Watson. There has been a long-going campaign by many online left-wing 'influencers' (in other words, bloggers) and some activists to get rid of Watson - which is really what this is about. You can speculate on the reasons for it, but I would say it's largely down to Watson being very vocal about some of his policy disagreements with Corbyn, a sense by some people that that isn't appropriate for a deputy leader, and a paranoia by many people on the left that everyone is out to undermine Corbyn - which tends to lead to some intolerance by some people on the left of more moderate views. Personally I think the whole campaign against Watson is pretty atrocious, and this way of getting rid of the deputy leader is manipulative and utterly appalling. But I don't see any reason to think Corbyn himself has anything to do it. I think it's more by nature of a grassroots thing that's been going on without any particular approval from the leadership: And it's been fairly common the last few years that many of Corbyn's followers show rather less tolerance than Corbyn himself does - and this seems to me a good example of that.

You may well be right, but the optics of this are terrible.

 

[BananaRepublic]

......Probably won't be long until Tom decides enough is enough and jumps ship taking some more MPs with him

I can’t see him jumping ship, but he really needs to do so ASAP.
All else is likely to be chaos.

.

 

[Bevan Price]

I fear that momentum will be regarded as the Tories' best hope for winning the next few elections.

 

[Cowley]

I fear that momentum will be regarded as the Tories' best hope for winning the next few elections.

It does rather look like it at the moment.

 

[The Ham]

It does rather look like it at the moment.

Although based on the fairly small sample size of this poll the Lib Dems are likely to do fairly well.

I'm not going to say anything about hat eating, as that had been shown to be an unwise thing to say relating to current voting patterns, however it would be fairly shocking if they managed to reach the position of main opposition party and would be quite a turn around to become the largest part. Even the the case presented above is repeated country wide then the Lib Dems could even be in power (which many could be tempted to threaten their head wear with being consumed if it were to happen) which would certainly be a shock result.

It should however be noted that may not actually win them that many seats if they are equally distributed and others are more focused with other areas balancing it out by having very low votes for that party.

It also should be noted that this sample may well just happen to include a significant number of people likely to vote one way or another whilst nationally the established voting patterns of areas may still be ingrained. Although in recent years we've seen the SNP significantly remove Labour from Scotland, which provided the likes of Tony Blair with a significant number of their MP's. As such there's president of their being a significant change in voting patterns.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I fear that momentum will be regarded as the Tories' best hope for winning the next few elections.

Yes, Labour would win a landslide if they put a Blairite-style (without the phoney wars) moderate in place. However, what's going on now is guaranteeing a Tory Government for at least the next term if not two.

I, for one, am really not very happy with this.

 

[najaB]

However, what's going on now is guaranteeing a Tory Government for at least the next term if not two.

I, for one, am really not very happy with this.

TBH, I wouldn't mind a truly conservative government (note the small 'c') but this current lot are the worst of the worst.

A bag of wet lettuce should be able to win handily against them, but Labour can't even manage that. I guess the best we can hope for at the moment is another hung parliament after the next election and maybe a Lib-Green-SNP coalition managing to eek into power. (A guy can dream can't he?!)

 

[ainsworth74]

A bag of wet lettuce should be able to win handily against them, but Labour can't even manage that.

Comrade it is far more important to ensure the ideological purity of the Party than it is to win trifling things like elections!

 

[DarloRich]

Momentum ideologues are bidding to abolish Tom Watson's deputy leader post in a bid to make the party purer, smaller and less electable. Sounds like a cracking idea. In ten years the Lib Dems will have totally overtaken Labour, if the hardline socialists keep running the party further into the ditch for the sake of their ideological purity (the ideology of Corbynism is also completely warped, anyway, so no great loss).

The whole idea was bonkers. Note that the purge has merely been postponed not cancelled. Labour is finished. The clowns are running the circus now.

Just when Corbyn was starting to get a bit of credibility after working with other parties and failing to fall into the Boris trap on the early election, the people around him seem to be going out of their way to render him unelectable.

They also roll out a scrap private schools policy that does nothing to impriove standards for all and instead ensures everyone has the same poor standards of education! Instead of outlining how they intend to improve state schools to a level higher than those of private schools ( thus rendering the private system pointless) they merely try to make sure that mediocrity is made normal. The policy does nothing to improve the lives of normal people and instead is simply a clown army dog whistle. It is so immature.

Actually, I would say this is probably to Corbyn's credit that he's put a stop the immediate attempt to oust Watson.

Come on: You are not that naive. This is orchestrated by the people around Corbyn. They coordinate the social / media response from their crackpot acolytes. Corbyn endorses what is going on.

I would say it's largely down to Watson being very vocal about some of his policy disagreements with Corbyn, a sense by some people that that isn't appropriate for a deputy leader, and a paranoia by many people on the left that everyone is out to undermine Corbyn

Correct. Watson is a sensible politician out to win power. Corbyn is a student union activist out to protest and offer nice warming lefty platitudes to his cronies while supporting his terrorist pals.

Comrade it is far more important to ensure the ideological purity of the Party than it is to win trifling things like elections!

Indeed. The Labour party spent years fighting and beating the likes of Millitant and SWP and other far left crack pots. Corbyn let them walk into the party and take control of the bureaucracy of the party, which is what they wanted . They are in charge now and they will ensure the labour party is ideologically pure and completely unelectable. Many long term, sensible, members have taken the advice freely offered by the clownentum types and fuched off somewhere else. We wont be back.

As I said: The Labour party is finished.

 

[edwin_m]

More than ever the question of who to vote for is down to the candidate not the party, especially in the case of Labour. Although the Lib Dems are closest to my own views and values, I would vote for a moderate pro-Remain Labour candidate over a Tory (I assume there are no moderate pro-Remain Tories any more) if they were the only two with a chance of winning. But if Labour put up a far left candidate in the same situation I'd vote LibDem even if they didn't have a hope.

But unless the candidate is high profile it's sometimes difficult to work out what their actual views are, as their communications tend to be the standard platitudes.

 

[yorksrob]

They also roll out a scrap private schools policy that does nothing to impriove standards for all and instead ensures everyone has the same poor standards of education! Instead of outlining how they intend to improve state schools to a level higher than those of private schools ( thus rendering the private system pointless) they merely try to make sure that mediocrity is made normal. The policy does nothing to improve the lives of normal people and instead is simply a clown army dog whistle. It is so immature.

I'm afraid that both parties have spent years decrying and dismantling academic selection in the education system, claiming that it didn't promote social mobility enough, not to mention destroying free tertiary education along the way.

Isn't it hypocritical to then turn a blind eye to selection by parental wealth, particularly given that a large proportion of the polititians who've dismantled academic selection and free tertiary education , seem to have benefitted from private education.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm afraid that both parties have spent years decrying and dismantling academic selection in the education system, claiming that it didn't promote social mobility enough, not to mention destroying free tertiary education along the way.

Isn't it hypocritical to then turn a blind eye to selection by parental wealth, particularly given that a large proportion of the polititians who've dismantled academic selection and free tertiary education , seem to have benefitted from private education.

because, of course, once the evil private education system is dismantled those same rich parents wont just pay for a private tutor for little Jonny.................

As I said this policy announcement does nothing to improve standards across the board. All it does is lock in mediocrity. it will play well with the kind of people Corbyn attracts and will stroke their jealousy of others but wont actually help anyone.

Personally I would be making private schools take many more people from poorer backgrounds on scholarships while ensuring state school standards and investment exceeded the level that private schools enjoy. I would take away tax exemptions and use that tax revenue to help state schools. make the fat cats pay more than once for education!

I want to use the private schools as a stick to beat the state system into better shape with the ultimate goal of making state education better and more successful than private.

That, of course, is much harder than simply saying: ban private schools.

 

[yorksrob]

because, of course, once the evil private education system is dismantled those same rich parents wont just pay for a private tutor for little Jonny.................

As I said this policy announcement does nothing to improve standards across the board. All it does is lock in mediocrity. it will play well with the kind of people Corbyn attracts and will stroke their jealousy of others but wont actually help anyone.

Personally I would be making private schools take many more people from poorer backgrounds on scholarships while ensuring state school standards and investment exceeded the level that private schools enjoy. I would take away tax exemptions and use that tax revenue to help state schools. make the fat cats pay more than once for education!

I want to use the private schools as a stick to beat the state system into better shape with the ultimate goal of making state education better and more successful than private.

That, of course, is much harder than simply saying: ban private schools.

And how do you choose which people from poorer backgrounds go to these places ? An exam ? In which case it's just a watered down version of academic selection which is supposedly bad.

Private tutors instead ? That's a lot of private tutors to tax.

 

[StaffsWCML]

because, of course, once the evil private education system is dismantled those same rich parents wont just pay for a private tutor for little Jonny.................

As I said this policy announcement does nothing to improve standards across the board. All it does is lock in mediocrity. it will play well with the kind of people Corbyn attracts and will stroke their jealousy of others but wont actually help anyone.

Personally I would be making private schools take many more people from poorer backgrounds on scholarships while ensuring state school standards and investment exceeded the level that private schools enjoy. I would take away tax exemptions and use that tax revenue to help state schools. make the fat cats pay more than once for education!

I want to use the private schools as a stick to beat the state system into better shape with the ultimate goal of making state education better and more successful than private.

That, of course, is much harder than simply saying: ban private schools.

Spot on.

 

[DarloRich]

And how do you choose which people from poorer backgrounds go to these places ? An exam ? In which case it's just a watered down version of academic selection which is supposedly bad.

Who says that is bad?

What is your plan to improve standards across the board once you have banned private education?