Poor condition of Bakerloo line stock

[Silent]

Do the London Overground trains on the same line get this treatment? Assuming that most of this trashing takes place North of Queens Park?

I doubt it. But they also have cctv and seem busier I think because of the interconnected carriages so you would feel watched.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I have said this before - as one time Operations Manager for what I prefer to call North London Railways in the late 1990's.

The then 313's were always better loaded , particularly in off-hours and especially in the evening as the passengers (oops) were together - unlike the virtually empty Bakerloo trains , plus we had CCTV on some of them (and some dummy cameras) , so they felt safer. As I instigated a zero graffitti tolerance with sets de-tagged in service at Watford during turnrounds - if there was any marking - the trains were pretty presentable most of the time.

It is possible to fight this moronic benaviour - leaving it on - just attracts more. (see case studies of New York - and how they beat it in the 1980's)

 

[Alxxxs]

Bakerloo line extension and DLR to Thamesmead: TfL sends 'wish list' to Rachel Reeves

TfL says investing in London can create jobs for the rest of the UK

www.standard.co.uk

“TfL wants to be able to place an order for a new fleet of Bakerloo trains by the end of 2026, so that they can be built by Siemens in Goole as soon as the factory finishes making the new fleet of Piccadilly line trains”

My estimates show that the last Picadilly train should be produced sometime in 2027

 

[ThameslinkUser]

My estimates show that the last Picadilly train should be produced sometime in 2027

TfL will be basing their purchases on contracts as opposed to your estimated delivery timeline.

 

[Cdd89]

I have also noticed this recently- some of the commentary in this thread about wider issues might be relevant if this were happening across all lines, but it's observably only the Bakerloo that is like this.

I wonder if one cause is a lack of spare trains? On other lines they would presumably pull trains from service to address tagging, but maybe that can't happen on the Bakerloo - and then 'broken windows' does the rest.

But that’s still no excuse for allowing trains to be seen in service in this state. I understand that cleaning tagging off may take time and resources they don't have, but if that's the case, paint over it with a white roller. Anything is better than having this visible on trains (the “broken windows” effects will likely spill over beyond just those trains).

 

[gfa]

I heard TfL were leaving it to an extent to try and show how badly the new trains are needed to central government - sounds like rubbish to me though

 

[bramling]

I heard TfL were leaving it to an extent to try and show how badly the new trains are needed to central government - sounds like rubbish to me though

I don’t think there’s a single reason, but more a combination of factors.

TFL has been cash-strapped for many years, and effects of this can be seen all over. It isn’t just the presentation of fleets that has suffered, reliability has generally tended to decline as well. I suspect we’ll see more of this as it becomes increasingly apparent that a lot of the work done during the PPP years was to a poor standard, especially on the stations.

Personally, I don’t think it’s all about money though. My own view is that there’s also been a lack of focus from the top down, and presentation just hasn’t been a priority for TFL. Perhaps Khan sees shoddy-looking trains and stations as merely part and parcel of being in a large city?

One can also wonder what BTP’s role in all of this is. Graffiti attacks are pretty brazen nowadays, it doesn’t just happen in insecure remote sidings, but increasingly whilst trains are in service. No one seems interested in tackling this.

There’s a real “head in the sand” culture at TFL now, at times it feels like an organisation very much in denial. You might get very rich if you had a pound for every time one heads Andy Lord say the word fantastic, but it doesn’t make things true.

 

[Towers]

I heard TfL were leaving it to an extent to try and show how badly the new trains are needed to central government - sounds like rubbish to me though

How does new trains address idiots daubing graffiti everywhere?

A bit of a side issue, but it amazes me that in this day and age we still have trains running around on London Underground without CCTV.

 

[Russel]

I suspect we’ll see more of this as it becomes increasingly apparent that a lot of the work done during the PPP years was to a poor standard, especially on the stations.

I keep seeing this posted, can you elaborate a little?

Not doubting you, just curious.

 

[Silent]

How does new trains address idiots daubing graffiti everywhere?

A bit of a side issue, but it amazes me that in this day and age we still have trains running around on London Underground without CCTV.

I think cctv does deter graffiti as I can see an s stock with graffiti, sometimes almost as severe as on the 72 stock but I hardly notice much graffiti inside the train I think because people would be more aware that the train has cctv

 

[Mikey C]

I have also noticed this recently- some of the commentary in this thread about wider issues might be relevant if this were happening across all lines, but it's observably only the Bakerloo that is like this.

I wonder if one cause is a lack of spare trains? On other lines they would presumably pull trains from service to address tagging, but maybe that can't happen on the Bakerloo - and then 'broken windows' does the rest.

But that’s still no excuse for allowing trains to be seen in service in this state. I understand that cleaning tagging off may take time and resources they don't have, but if that's the case, paint over it with a white roller. Anything is better than having this visible on trains (the “broken windows” effects will likely spill over beyond just those trains).

The Northern Line 95s are notably shabbier than they were even a year ago. Dirtier on the outside, and much more graffiti, though not on the inside.

I'm not seeing the same decline with buses.

 

[Thirteen]

The Northern Line 95s are notably shabbier than they were even a year ago. Dirtier on the outside, and much more graffiti, though not on the inside.

I'm not seeing the same decline with buses.

Buses tend to replace more often and the big drive at the moment is the introduction of electric buses so a lot of them look pristine at the moment.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Buses tend to replace more often and the big drive at the moment is the introduction of electric buses so a lot of them look pristine at the moment.

More crucially, buses in London are contracted from private companies and contracts state specifications and timescales for refurbishment. LUL only has a contract with itself, so when it needs to save money, that’s an easy thing to dispense with!

 

[465Harry]

The Northern Line 95s are notably shabbier than they were even a year ago. Dirtier on the outside, and much more graffiti, though not on the inside.

I'm not seeing the same decline with buses.

in fairness, i have noticed that they've started cleaning the trains. most of the outside muck and tags are gone, although years of accumulated soot has taken its toll.
if you really want to see the effects of the cleaning, head to an island platform station where you'll most likely see one next to a dirty unit.

 

[BRX]

TFL has been cash-strapped for many years, and effects of this can be seen all over.

One thing I've noticed deteriorate is the standard of provision of info - for example it now seems quite common for the TfL journey planner etc not to be updated with things like bus diversions. I feel that this would not have happened 10+ years ago.

 

[sh24]

DM 3560 is in an exceptionally poor state. Heavily spray painted graffiti outside, tags all over the show inside including even the ceiling and lots of scratched windows too. My OH walked on and commented how unpleasant it feels.

 

[Silent]

Random comment but I was using the Bakerloo recently and a kid, maybe 5/6 years old said this is the train that is never cleaned.

 

[Snow1964]

The TfL Board Programmes and Investment committee papers for next weeks meeting are now published and agenda item 13 covers Bakerloo upgrade

Quite lot of info, but picking out some points :

Outline Business case submitted to DfT in December 2024
Appears hoping summer 2025 Government spending review agrees funds for new trains
Gate B (define tranches) which sounds like the development plan, apparently was stopped end Jan (so possibly forward progress is on hold, while rethinking)
Cost benefit ratio is 4.1 relative to do nothing
Do nothing would see reductions in service and eventually close of line
Current fleet is referred to as 'life expired fleet' in Board papers

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/pic-20250305-progammes-and-investment-committee.pdf

 

[Thirteen]

Realistically speaking, the Government can't exactly say no to replacing life expired Tube stock given how important London is to the overall UK economy.

 

[thomalex]

I travel on the Bakerloo a couple of times a week and it really is rough compared to how it was even a few months ago, I can't remember when I last saw one which didn't have large painted graffiti on the outside and covered in tags on the walls and floors on the inside, it's depressing experience to be honest, I've no idea what tourists to London make of it. The trains are also visibly not being washed over the past few weeks with people writing stuff in the dirt so presumably the train wash is broken as well. Something is clearly very wrong with maintenance here, has a contractor they were using gone bust maybe?

I'm surprised it's not been picked up in the media yet.

 

[yorksrob]

Graffiti is so 1980's anyway, don't these bloody people have something modern to screw up ?

 

[Mikey C]

Was on the Bakerloo this morning. Awful graffiti inside the carriages, completely unacceptable.

 

[Thirteen]

Closing the Bakerloo Line seems unlikely even though TfL have threatened it before, you'd end up with ongoing strike action.

 

[Silent]

Graffiti is so 1980's anyway, don't these bloody people have something modern to screw up ?

Society is influenced by the 80’s. They sprayed a 24 ts.

 

[yorksrob]

Society is influenced by the 80’s. They sprayed a 24 ts.

To be fair, I wish it was still the 80's/90's, so I don't blame them in that.

 

[Russel]

Used the central line today, some of the 92 stock has just as much graffiti, internally.

 

[JonathanH]

Realistically speaking, the Government can't exactly say no to replacing life expired Tube stock given how important London is to the overall UK economy.

They can, particularly if transport spending is one of the areas that comes under pressure to release funds for other priorities. The Bakerloo Line is relatively inconsequential in the grand scheme of things nowadays and it may just have to continue with what it has for the moment.

 

[philosopher]

They can, particularly if transport spending is one of the areas that comes under pressure to release funds for other priorities. The Bakerloo Line is relatively inconsequential in the grand scheme of things nowadays and it may just have to continue with what it has for the moment.

I agree they can. However a closure of the line, especially the entire line will look extremely bad on London and the UK and will further cement the view that the UK is nation on the decline, both nationally and internationally. Therefore I think it is likely the government will reluctantly stump up the funding for new trains.

Delaying new trains for few years is more likely, which I suspect would result in the Queens Park to Harrow and Wealdstone section being mothballed. TfL may use the threat of such closures as a way of putting pressure on Central government to provide the funding for new trains.

 

[Nym]

Or TfL could reduce the fleet requirement by running the Bakerloo from Queens Park to Elephant and Castle only, with additonal London Overground operated services between Queens Park and Harrow.

This was raised even 10 years ago as an option to release 72TS for heavy overhaul, using either D78 stock displaced or leased units from the massive pools of spare units

 

[Ashley Hill]

I travelled on the Bakerloo last week. Apart from the graffiti I found it quite nostalgic,I even found a forward facing seat!