Poor condition of Northern line fleet

[andystock22]

The Northern Line fleet is in such poor condition and is need of a deep clean and seat repairs

 

[Seehof]

Not back to the 1970s, I hope!

 

[tom1649]

Does Alstom still have the maintenance contract for the 95 stock? If so, LUL need to put some pressure on.

 

[Skimble19]

I’ve thought this every time I’ve got on the Northern line lately. Extremely grubby all round, they look like they need a very deep clean / a refresh!

 

[Recessio]

I moved to London in 2017 and noticed the Northern Line stock has tanked in cleanliness and quality. I guess especially since covid its been the budget cuts to maintenance...

 

[stuu]

Would the Bank closure have messed up maintenance schedules?

 

[Dstock7080]

Would the Bank closure have messed up maintenance schedules?

no, trains returned to depots as usual.

 

[Tubeboy]

Don’t forget TFL we're unsuccessful in getting additional trains for both the Jubilee and Northern lines through it’s JNAT project.

Add in the pressures of working the Battersea extension, and the fleet is working very hard, probably the hardest they’ve ever beeen worked. They literally sit at termini for a few minutes before moving again.

 

[Dstock7080]

Add in the pressures of working the Battersea extension, and the fleet is working very hard, probably the hardest they’ve ever beeen worked. They literally sit at termini for a few minutes before moving again.

Just +1 train required peak, -1 required off-peak before and with Battersea

 

[Tubeboy]

What about when the Battersea service is increased when the new WTT starts?

 

[bramling]

Don’t forget TFL we're unsuccessful in getting additional trains for both the Jubilee and Northern lines through it’s JNAT project.

Add in the pressures of working the Battersea extension, and the fleet is working very hard, probably the hardest they’ve ever beeen worked. They literally sit at termini for a few minutes before moving again.

The fleet has been worked harder since TBTC came in as the service is more intensive (every 3 mins off-peak for example instead of every 4 mins). Battersea isn’t that much of an issue as it’s still only an infrequent service, plus there’s been some changes elsewhere such as removing the Mill Hill shuttle.

I’d put it more down to Covid. Depot staff availability will have taken a hit just like everything else over the last two years, plus the situation with driver availability again due to Covid (not helped by having to release people to train for Battersea) again will have impacted on what trains get back to depot overnight etc, which in turn affects what work can be carried out. Never underestimate the wider impact of having 50+ cancellations in a typical day, which was the case daily for much of 2020 and 2021. Things should be a bit better now Battersea is bedded in.

To be fair, I think it’s fair to say that the Alstom contract has tended to work pretty well over the years, albeit at a significant cost. The Northern fleet is pretty well performing, and benchmarks well against other fleets. Again whilst they may look a little tatty at the moment again they still compare well to other LU fleets. The difference with the similar Jubilee fleet is quite noticeable.

 

[Dstock7080]

What about when the Battersea service is increased when the new WTT starts?

Comparison WTT57 28 January 2018 and WTT59 27 June 2022

 

[endicomark69@g]

The Northern is getting grubby.....whether this is an outward sign of mechanical decline I wouldn't know, but it's still a degree of magnitude better outwardly than either the Bakerloo or Piccadilly in terms of pure grime.

Deep cleans are perhaps becoming a sometimes thing.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There were queues held at London Bridge today while a failed 1995 stock was moved out of the way

 

[Dstock7080]

There were queues held at London Bridge today while a failed 1995 stock was moved out of the way

Defective in-cab OPO monitors

 

[bramling]

There were queues held at London Bridge today while a failed 1995 stock was moved out of the way

95 stock is pretty reliable.

It is exceptionally rare for one to sit down “properly”, and pretty much unheard of for one to need to be assisted by another train.

And in a proportion of the very rare cases where one has properly sat down it will be because the driver hasn’t reacted correctly in a timely manner to early indications of a problem developing, or because of an external factor like shoes being knocked off.

Despite the fleet being worked harder than a decade ago, there don’t seem to be any signs of reliability declining. They are an excellent train, and benchmark well against other fleets including newer ones. (And no I don’t have shares in Alstom!).

 

[Snow1964]

95 stock is pretty reliable.

It is exceptionally rare for one to sit down “properly”, and pretty much unheard of for one to need to be assisted by another train.

And in a proportion of the very rare cases where one has properly sat down it will be because the driver hasn’t reacted correctly in a timely manner to early indications of a problem developing, or because of an external factor like shoes being knocked off.

Despite the fleet being worked harder than a decade ago, there don’t seem to be any signs of reliability declining. They are an excellent train, and benchmark well against other fleets including newer ones. (And no I don’t have shares in Alstom!).

I think this post and the first post sum it up very well

The fleet is being maintained to run reliably, however as the photos in first post show, cosmetically it is in rather poor shape

I suspect that is the way the contract has been set up, with bigger penalties for train not being able to run, than one being put in service with threadbear seats.

 

[Central]

Alsthom do the mechanical/electrical maintainence,cleaning is sub contracted out.

 

[bramling]

I think this post and the first post sum it up very well

The fleet is being maintained to run reliably, however as the photos in first post show, cosmetically it is in rather poor shape

I suspect that is the way the contract has been set up, with bigger penalties for train not being able to run, than one being put in service with threadbear seats.

LU do seem to take the view that they can refurbish a train and then expect it to run for many years with little cosmetic attention. Many of their fleets are in a dire external state, look at something like the 72 stock on the Bakerloo which last had a proper external repaint in the early 1990s.

The Barman moquette also doesn’t seem to wear too well, possibly not helped by nowadays being mounted on foam.

I can’t see much happening with respect of the 95 stock ambience for the time being though.

 

[Recessio]

95 stock is pretty reliable.

It is exceptionally rare for one to sit down “properly”, and pretty much unheard of for one to need to be assisted by another train.

And in a proportion of the very rare cases where one has properly sat down it will be because the driver hasn’t reacted correctly in a timely manner to early indications of a problem developing, or because of an external factor like shoes being knocked off.

Despite the fleet being worked harder than a decade ago, there don’t seem to be any signs of reliability declining. They are an excellent train, and benchmark well against other fleets including newer ones. (And no I don’t have shares in Alstom!).

Pretty amazing considering how the Junipers, sharing ONIX equipment, were legendary unreliable for years!

 

[fgwrich]

Pretty amazing considering how the Junipers, sharing ONIX equipment, were legendary unreliable for years!

Then again, so is the Pendolino which always seems to do rather well. Only the Junipers (and Coradia's) seem to be the runt of the Alstom family.

 

[bramling]

Pretty amazing considering how the Junipers, sharing ONIX equipment, were legendary unreliable for years!

Junipers aren’t maintained by the manufacturer I believe? Alstom have an incentive to have the 95 stock perform well, though to be fair they’ve been reasonably okay from the start once initial teething issues were ironed out.

 

[Mojo]

I find the 92 TS to be in far worse condition internally than the 95 stock. On a rainy day if you sit in the “long” section of the car you have a 50/50 chance of having water dripping onto your head. Plenty of sections of panelling on the train are stuck together with tape and every single bulkhead behind the cab seems to have graffiti on it.

Hopefully it’s just a temporary thing pending the imminent refurb, but the fleet has been like it for about 2/3 years now.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I find the 92 TS to be in far worse condition internally than the 95 stock. On a rainy day if you sit in the “long” section of the car you have a 50/50 chance of having water dripping onto your head. Plenty of sections of panelling on the train are stuck together with tape and every single bulkhead behind the cab seems to have graffiti on it.

Hopefully it’s just a temporary thing pending the imminent refurb, but the fleet has been like it for about 2/3 years now.

The large windows always make them like a greenhouse in hot weather too; the sun warms the train up well while out of the tunnels and that boiling hot air stays trapped as the train runs underground.

 

[43096]

Pretty amazing considering how the Junipers, sharing ONIX equipment, were legendary unreliable for years!

There’s more to train reliability than the traction package. If you ask South Western engineers off the record, they would likely tell you the Onix kit is better than the Siemens equivalent on the Desiros.

Then again, so is the Pendolino which always seems to do rather well. Only the Junipers (and Coradia's) seem to be the runt of the Alstom family.

An odd runt of the litter considering the 458s were for some time the most reliable trains in the country.

Junipers aren’t maintained by the manufacturer I believe?

They’re not, and it was only when Alstom were unceremoniously booted out of 458 involvement that Porterbrook and SWT were able to improve reliability significantly.

 

[cactustwirly]

Please travel on the Bakerloo line, the trains are in a much worse condition.
Probably the worst trains in the UK, TfL don't bother maintaining them properly, with most trains not even having fully functioning interior lights

 

[Lewlew]

Please travel on the Bakerloo line, the trains are in a much worse condition.
Probably the worst trains in the UK, TfL don't bother maintaining them properly, with most trains not even having fully functioning interior lights

The lights are being replaced by LEDs and will be a lot more reliable

 

[TFN]

Also the Victoria Line seat covers are beyond faded and worn, and some carriages looking rather dark with all the dust in the lighting fixtures. Have they been refurbished at all since their introduction?

 

[Hadders]

Also the Victoria Line seat covers are beyond faded and worn, and some carriages looking rather dark with all the dust in the lighting fixtures. Have they been refurbished at all since their introduction?

The Victoria Line 09 stock trains were introduced between 2009 and 2011 so aren't due any refurbishment yet.

TfL is broke at the moment and I suspect we will have to get used to tattier and more run down interiors over the next few years.

 

[Trackman]

I still think they are new, compared to what we had before!
Time flies though ...