Poor Northern excuse regarding platform length constraints delaying introduction of longer trains

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Yorkshire222

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This article - https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2020/0...operator-issues-response-to-tv-interview.html says Northern claim longer platforms at Leeds has delayed them running longer trains. Now Leeds has exceedingly long through platforms which can take (I estimate) at least 20 carriages. Even some of the terminating platforms can take full London trains with plenty of spare space, so how long were these Northern trains going to be?
 
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yorkie

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Now Leeds has exceedingly long through platforms which can take (I estimate) at least 20 carriages. Even some of the terminating platforms can take full London trains with plenty of spare space, so how long were these Northern trains going to be?
Northern generally use the terminating platforms for terminating trains. I'd imagine the issue is that these platforms are divided up and take multiple services at once.

Note: to anyone replying to this thread, this is not a "master" thread for anything to do with Northern; it's to answer this specific query please, thanks :)
 

xotGD

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In another thread, didn't someone say that P1 is actually being shortened in association with the construction of P0?

Are any platforms at Leeds actually being extended?
 

Dr Hoo

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The quote in the original article appears to state "new and longer platforms at Leeds stations are delayed". So, Platform 0 is going to be "new" and (given that multiple "Leeds stations" are involved) suggests there are other locations besides the main one.

Without getting into long and complicated explanations about parallel movements, re-occupation time, splitting and joining, approach control and whether some 'suburban' stations are strictly in 'Bradford' rather than 'Leeds', etc., etc. it struck me that it was a reasonable turn of phrase for a general audience. Basically a lot of work remains to be done before some constraints are eased.
 

Andyh82

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This article - https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2020/0...operator-issues-response-to-tv-interview.html says Northern claim longer platforms at Leeds has delayed them running longer trains. Now Leeds has exceedingly long through platforms which can take (I estimate) at least 20 carriages. Even some of the terminating platforms can take full London trains with plenty of spare space, so how long were these Northern trains going to be?
The new trains they are talking about are the electrics that go from Platforms 1 to 5

They can’t just use the long through platforms for these services instead as these are in use for other services, both services that run through and also terminating services from other locations that wouldn’t be able to swap places and use platforms 1 to 5 instead.
 

Bantamzen

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This article - https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2020/0...operator-issues-response-to-tv-interview.html says Northern claim longer platforms at Leeds has delayed them running longer trains. Now Leeds has exceedingly long through platforms which can take (I estimate) at least 20 carriages. Even some of the terminating platforms can take full London trains with plenty of spare space, so how long were these Northern trains going to be?

As others have said, it is not about the length of the Northern units (which were planned to be 2*3 car 331s), its simply about a lack of overall platform capacity. At busy times the bay platforms can all be in use, sometimes with more than one service waiting to leave from some of them. Its not unusual for Harrogate, Aire & Wharfe services to have to queue outside of the station whilst starting services leave. If the truth be known one extra platform, as well as the reworking of the trackwork to allow more parallel moves, whilst being a welcome addition is really only a short(ish) term solution. It won't be long before the extra capacity is swallowed up and more is needed.
 

superkev

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In another thread, didn't someone say that P1 is actually being shortened in association with the construction of P0?

Are any platforms at Leeds actually being extended?
Has anyone got or seen a track plan of the new layout installed over Christmas. A believe as well as a connection to new platform zero a crossover has been installed which may have shortened P1
K
 

Llama

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Just two sets of points installed, no actual crossovers. Points currently lead nowhere and are obviously clipped & scotched and out of commission.
 

Harpers Tate

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Apparently the services that run semi-fast to Sheffield (and thence to either Lincoln or Nottingham) cannot ever be bigger than two coaches, because they use platform 17 at Leeds - a platform which typically has another service that comes and goes on top while the Sheffield set is waiting there - and platform 17 isn't big enough for this movement to occur on top of more than two coaches.
 

class 9

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This article - https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2020/0...operator-issues-response-to-tv-interview.html says Northern claim longer platforms at Leeds has delayed them running longer trains. Now Leeds has exceedingly long through platforms which can take (I estimate) at least 20 carriages. Even some of the terminating platforms can take full London trains with plenty of spare space, so how long were these Northern trains going to be?
No platforms at Leeds can take 20 carriages. Based on 23 metre vehicles, platform 8 can take 16 vehicles(up direction) and platform 11 can take 15 vehicles.
 

J-2739

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Apparently the services that run semi-fast to Sheffield (and thence to either Lincoln or Nottingham) cannot ever be bigger than two coaches, because they use platform 17 at Leeds - a platform which typically has another service that comes and goes on top while the Sheffield set is waiting there - and platform 17 isn't big enough for this movement to occur on top of more than two coaches.
They can; just today, I was on a double 195/0 on the service from Sheffield (truncated). Although perhaps it used a platform other than p17 at Leeds.
 

Western Lord

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As others have said, it is not about the length of the Northern units (which were planned to be 2*3 car 331s), its simply about a lack of overall platform capacity. At busy times the bay platforms can all be in use, sometimes with more than one service waiting to leave from some of them. Its not unusual for Harrogate, Aire & Wharfe services to have to queue outside of the station whilst starting services leave. If the truth be known one extra platform, as well as the reworking of the trackwork to allow more parallel moves, whilst being a welcome addition is really only a short(ish) term solution. It won't be long before the extra capacity is swallowed up and more is needed.
Of course, there used to be more terminal platforms in Leeds: it was called Leeds Central!
 

tbtc

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The quote in the original article appears to state "new and longer platforms at Leeds stations are delayed". So, Platform 0 is going to be "new" and (given that multiple "Leeds stations" are involved) suggests there are other locations besides the main one.

Without getting into long and complicated explanations about parallel movements, re-occupation time, splitting and joining, approach control and whether some 'suburban' stations are strictly in 'Bradford' rather than 'Leeds', etc., etc. it struck me that it was a reasonable turn of phrase for a general audience. Basically a lot of work remains to be done before some constraints are eased.

I agree - obviously the thread title suggests that Northern are to blame - most people seem to assume that Northern are to blame for most things - but if they ordered trains on the basis that they'd be able to run six coaches on Airedale services and the infrastructure isn't there then maybe Northern aren't wholly to blame... the good news is that we should have a more reliable service once the extra platform is operational, parallel moves are permitted in the throat, longer platforms are finished and the new trains are doubled up... but in the meantime we seem to have a convenient scapegoat for these things not happening (even though most of the problems seem to be with Network Rail). Who are we going to blame for a complex combination of problems once the whipping boys (Arriva) exit stage left?

As usual, it's more convenient for some people to take a quote out of context than understand the large(r) number of root causes (obviously not a dig at @Dr Hoo , I can assure you!)
 

MarkRedon

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The platforms of Leeds Wellington have in part been reinstated, after a fashion. Platform 0 is a further move in that direction. The former Wellington concourse has been in reuse and in fine fettle since the Leeds First rebuild.
 

Andyh82

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Apparently the services that run semi-fast to Sheffield (and thence to either Lincoln or Nottingham) cannot ever be bigger than two coaches, because they use platform 17 at Leeds - a platform which typically has another service that comes and goes on top while the Sheffield set is waiting there - and platform 17 isn't big enough for this movement to occur on top of more than two coaches.
Looking at it from a layman’s perspective, Platform 17 looks to be very easy to extend further out, at least by one carriage length, which would mean it could accomodate 2x3.

Does anyone agree? They could probably do it for about 100 million!
 

nimbus21

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Could more platform space be created by running more services through to one of Bradford's two central stations which are currently very badly served by through trains?
 

Bantamzen

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Could more platform space be created by running more services through to one of Bradford's two central stations which are currently very badly served by through trains?

Put simply no, there are few services that come in from the east of Leeds that actually terminate there. And even if you turned a few west arriving services back towards Bradford you have 4-5tph heading towards the Bradford Interchange, and 4-5tph heading up the Aire Valley towards Shipley, and 6tph between Shipley & Bradford Forster Square. There simply wouldn't be the capacity.
 

AndyW33

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Could more platform space be created by running more services through to one of Bradford's two central stations which are currently very badly served by through trains?
Not enough to help. Why? because there are vastly more trains arriving in Leeds from the west end of the station than from the east end, and most of the ones that do arrive from the east already do run through to somewhere. So to extend a train to Bradford, you'd need to use one that arrives from the west, and reverse it in a platform. But reversing takes longer than just stopping....
Then there's the lack of platforms at the two Bradford stations, thanks to rebuilds which removed the spare capacity which existed at the end of the steam era.
Finally, there's a lack of paths between Leeds and Bradford, particularly across the Leeds west end station throat, but also on the Aire Valley line generally.
 

superkev

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It's a pity the electrification from Neville hill to colton York and Selby wasn't Graylinged (paused or cancelled). This would allowed through ekectric trains Skipton to York etc probably alleviating the need for as many west end bays.
Also there was a proposal or intention to join the two south side bays to make a through platform. Lifts and escalators where installed during the last rebuild for this eventuality
K
 

Snow1964

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Going back to original comment, this is the usual poor communication.

A few low numbered platforms are Leeds at length restricted, but the announcement is reduced to a politically correct version that doesn't state the reason, doesn't qualify its only some platforms, or explain it was a lack of timescale co-ordination with new trains introduction date and platform extension date.

As so often happens in these situations the dumbed down announcement is then ridiculed as it looks stupid.
Would have been so much better to have added due to construction delays of platform extensions to announcement (without attributing why)
 

Bantamzen

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Going back to original comment, this is the usual poor communication.

A few low numbered platforms are Leeds at length restricted, but the announcement is reduced to a politically correct version that doesn't state the reason, doesn't qualify its only some platforms, or explain it was a lack of timescale co-ordination with new trains introduction date and platform extension date.

As so often happens in these situations the dumbed down announcement is then ridiculed as it looks stupid.
Would have been so much better to have added due to construction delays of platform extensions to announcement (without attributing why)

In all honesty most of the travelling public won't care about the reasons, indeed many won't even be aware of the plan to run a few 2*331s in the peaks. And those that do will already know through forums like this, or through social media that the work at Leeds is running late & ongoing. So I'm not sure what you are expecting here?
 

Snow1964

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In all honesty most of the travelling public won't care about the reasons, indeed many won't even be aware of the plan to run a few 2*331s in the peaks. And those that do will already know through forums like this, or through social media that the work at Leeds is running late & ongoing. So I'm not sure what you are expecting here?

Sorry but you missed the point, it isn't about giving info to those in the know, or who follow forums.

It is about explaining properly. You don't state in a media interview (which will been seen by occasional users) that you had plans to operate longer trains to ease crowding by now, but not currently doing so, without either offering a revised start date, or explaining what the hold up is. Quite simply you shouldn't re-advertise the improvement if it not happening anytime soon.

As it stands (if you know nothing about the complex workings of the railway) it looks like the railway employees of Yorkshire are too stupid to build a few metres of platform or learn quickly how to operate a train. Probably not the message that was intended.
 
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Bantamzen

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Sorry but you missed the point, it isn't about giving info to those in the know, or who follow forums.

It is about explaining properly. You don't state in a media interview (which will been seen by occasional users) that you had plans to operate longer trains to ease crowding by now, but not currently doing so, without either offering a revised start date, or explaining what the hold up is. Quite simply you shouldn't re-advertise the improvement if it not happening anytime soon.

As it stands (if you know nothing about the workings of the railway) it looks like the railway employees of Yorkshire are too stupid to build a few metres of platform or learn quickly how to operate a train. Probably not the message that was intended.

That really isn't how it looks, as I said a lot of people in this area don't even know about the 6 car plans. If anything the emphasis was on new trains, i.e. the 331s, coming as opposed to longer formations. Even the various posters that went up prior to their introduction mentioned nothing about 6 car workings.

As for timescales, how can Northern offer a commencement date when they probably don't know themselves? Network Rail will have a planned completion date, but as with many projects that could slip. Just look at what happened with Low Moor for example, that was well on course until a disused mining shaft was discovered on site. Given that works at Leeds are edging towards the river, I'd say Northern would be right to be cautious.
 

thejuggler

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In May 2019 there was an early service which started in York and went through to Man Vic via Bradford. It was a bad idea as it was hardly ever on time, losing time well before it arrived in Leeds.
 

yorksrob

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Looking at it from a layman’s perspective, Platform 17 looks to be very easy to extend further out, at least by one carriage length, which would mean it could accomodate 2x3.

Does anyone agree? They could probably do it for about 100 million!

The space on the viaduct looks wide enough, as does the platform loop.
 

Andyh82

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Item 9 on the agenda here partly deals with the issues relating to platform constraints on train lengths at Leeds: https://westyorkshire.moderngov.co.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=138&MId=851
Thanks for that. The appendix is interesting, it’s clear that the length of Platform 17 is a big issue as they say it “requires urgent intervention”

Whether it will or not is another question of course, it’s much easier to just criticise Northern for only running two carriages and demand they lose the franchise!
 

61653 HTAFC

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Could more platform space be created by running more services through to one of Bradford's two central stations which are currently very badly served by through trains?
Thanks for that. The appendix is interesting, it’s clear that the length of Platform 17 is a big issue as they say it “requires urgent intervention”

At some point in the future, the Leeds-Nottingham service will extend to Bradford Interchange. At the same time it will switch to operating via Wakefield Westgate, so will no longer use Platform 17.
 

rich-leeds

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I don't think that there will be a parallel cut in frequency of the semi-fasts on Leeds - Wakefield Kirkgate - Barnsley - Sheffield though - will still be half hourly, with alternates running beyond Sheffield to Lincoln. May be wrong.
 
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