Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by aformeruser, 2 Dec 2016.

  1. geoffk

    geoffk Established Member

    Messages:
    1,195
    Joined:
    4 Aug 2010
    Would have made more sense to keep the current Alderley Edge/Stalybridge to Wigan NW service pattern but it seems Northern has caved in to pressure from Southport residents for an all-day service to Piccadilly (and a service to Bolton). I assume the traction change will now take place at Bolton rather than Lostock Jn on the move. Any point now in wiring to Wigan (except as a diversionary route)?
     
  2. Mogster

    Mogster Member

    Messages:
    322
    Joined:
    25 Sep 2018
    All the seats... and any other available space, is filled on the Alderley-Southport services I travel on. I’m not sure why people think the only crush loaded trains are within the M25.

    We are normally given a 4 car 150, 142 or combo of either. 4 cars are inadequate, we need 6/8 cars, I don’t see how a 4 car 319 will change things much. A 319 is just a 150. It’s clear Northern need more capacity but with large numbers of 142s being pensioned off it’s hard to see what’s going to fill the gap even.
     
  3. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

    Messages:
    3,445
    Joined:
    4 Dec 2013
    Location:
    Baildon, West Yorkshire
    Not on the right side of the Pennines, evening peak 333s (for example) leaving Leeds will always have every seat taken if needed. In the mornings its not uncommon for more to choose to stand, but these often seem to be the ones determined to make it to the gateline first, or those that like to charge towards their connection (even if the connection is the London sitting on the adjacent platform not due to leave for more than 10 minutes).

    And whilst this does mean that you have to make (shock, horror) physical shoulder to shoulder contact for a bit, people around here seem to cope.
     
  4. Grumpy Git

    Grumpy Git Member

    Messages:
    290
    Joined:
    13 Oct 2019
    Location:
    Merseyside
    That was 30+ years ago, passengers expectations may have changed somewhat in the intervening years, (I worked on them briefly on a test train in 1988 when they were new)?
     
  5. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

    Messages:
    7,382
    Joined:
    13 May 2014
    Location:
    St Albans
    Well there's plenty more 319s available for conversion or even running as EMUs. I doubt that there'll be any opportunities to buy suitable bi-modes for a few years, especially when the raw materials for more 769s are sitting in sidings. Once the class gets full approval, conversions could proceed at a
     
  6. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

    Messages:
    7,382
    Joined:
    13 May 2014
    Location:
    St Albans
    But overcrowded Pacers and 150s are what you have now! Trains are still carrying MKI human beings. There are services running in London that have 35 year old 455s, 28 year old 321s, 1973 stock tube trains. No reason why trains that can run fully loaded down south should be older than what those in Lancashire have. Argument works both ways. The 769s are a stop gap allowing Pacers to be withdrawn. In the short-term there is no plan B! If you are saying that you might as well keep the existing stock, then they can't be that bad.
     
  7. notlob.divad

    notlob.divad Established Member

    Messages:
    1,184
    Joined:
    19 Jan 2016
    Which is all well and good, and am one that thinks converting them all to remove diesel under the wire running would be a good move. However how many platforms in the North are able to take an 8 car 319 formation? Outside the major city centres there are not many. 6 cars would struggle at the majority.
     
  8. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

    Messages:
    7,382
    Joined:
    13 May 2014
    Location:
    St Albans
    So whatever was run, it would be limited to about 80m length. The only remedies would be more frequent 4-car trains or (better) for NR to bite the bullet and extend the offending platforms. If the second was doen, at least it would be a permanent fix.
     
  9. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

    Messages:
    7,382
    Joined:
    13 May 2014
    Location:
    St Albans
    A 4-car 319/769 would always be given, (as opposed to normally), it can't be anything less so that's an improvement for a start. As somebody up thread has said, a 319 is not just a 150, or even two 150s, - the interior is much more suited to high density services and there is more room because there are two cabs less and one PRM toilet less. See post #4086 above, the other remedy would be for the short platforms to be extended, but if the problem is capacity related, given the extensive electrified lines now in the North-west, maybe some infill is overdue and a flexible resource like the 769s could then be better used elsewhere.
     
  10. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

    Messages:
    16,594
    Joined:
    21 Apr 2013
    Location:
    Nottingham
    The Euro standard applicable to a diesel engine is the one in force at the time of making the engine, not the train. I'm not sure which one this was for the 769s, but the pollutants that are immediately harmful to people nearby (so excluding CO2) will be more limited on these trains than on any of Northern's other DMUs except the 195s.
     
  11. Llama

    Llama Established Member

    Messages:
    1,155
    Joined:
    29 Apr 2014
    It was never the plan to change from diesel to electric traction (and vice versa) at Lostock Jn, always Bolton.
     
  12. transmanche

    transmanche Established Member

    Messages:
    5,736
    Joined:
    27 Feb 2011
    You can repeat it as often as you wish. But it doesn't make it true.
     
  13. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    15,586
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    So "four coach 100mph trains with commuter doors bad, two coach 100mph trains with commuter doors good"?

    (I know that 195s are two or three coaches, but that wouldn't fit as neatly into an Animal Farm comparison)

    Essentially, like most things on the Forum these days, it seems to come down to the type of seats. Fit some posher seats in a 319 and people will accept it as a (long) replacement for a (shorter) 195 on the Barrow/ Windermere services. Seriously. Seats are like the lipstick on a pig - a great way of distracting enthusiasts between one type of train and another.
     
  14. Roose

    Roose Member

    Messages:
    193
    Joined:
    23 May 2014
    By the time refurbishment to Northern Connect standard took place, recent experience suggests 'short-term' would have been and gone. Anyway, no short-term solution needed. New trains are already in service which do meet the Northern Connect specification.
     
  15. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

    Messages:
    7,382
    Joined:
    13 May 2014
    Location:
    St Albans
    But are there enough of them* because there won't be any more, plus they are simple diesels so in a few years, they won't be welcome in city centre stations. So far their infant mortality record seems to rule against there being enough to cover the planned diagrams.
     
  16. AndrewE

    AndrewE Established Member

    Messages:
    3,165
    Joined:
    9 Nov 2015
    except that there are not yet many "new trains already in service," I only wish there were!
    All
    the trains I have been on between Manchester and Leeds are still grossly overcrowded, I have had to travel from Cheshire to Yorkshire twice this week, and not one east of Manchester was longer than 3 cars or on time. Admittedly that's a TPE (passengers') problem, but really splitting the services only serves to distract and divide the blame. You might see a loco-hauled train, or even an 802 (only 1 of each in service from what I can see) flashing past in the opposite direction but I have not found any relief from our problems of the last 5 years or so.
    On Northern alone, I have had a ride or two on a 319 and they were great, 4 coaches instead of 3 on the previous stock, and much better than a 2-car to Blackpool, but we haven't seen a major upgrade yet - although this evening I did notice a lot of trains strengthened by a 142 stuck on to a couple of other DMUs out of Manchester Pic. Maybe the passengers on those trains were grateful, and I suppose it's better than nothing...
     
  17. Mogster

    Mogster Member

    Messages:
    322
    Joined:
    25 Sep 2018
    I agree with the advantage of 319s always being 4 car. With the reliability problems with Northerns 319s though I’m concerned the lack of flexibility leads to the possibility of “no train” being available rather than a short formed service as happens now.
     
  18. Andrew Holland

    Andrew Holland Member

    Messages:
    48
    Joined:
    7 Jun 2018
    Aren't ScotRail doing exactly that with 40 year old HSTs just now? Seems to be working out ok for them and the passengers love them, the point is a properly done refurb when the underneaths are still ok and reliable is perfectly acceptable from a passenger point, the refurbished HSTs in Scotland are a step up and away from their previous and very, very dated configuration. Passengers will perceive an old train as "new" if the interior looks and feels new...
     
  19. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

    Messages:
    7,382
    Joined:
    13 May 2014
    Location:
    St Albans
    Well 'no train' is a risk anywhere because even new trains fail, (see the 195/331 thread). The 319s were worked hard through to their end on TL and they did have failures but mostly they turned up when needed. The 769s will be using the same hardware for traction but when on diesel, the motors will be far less taxed as they are continuously far above the genset's maximum output. The diesel engines and generators are new and of recent design so once they are bedded in, they should be as reliable as those on a new train.
    Yes The weather and track conditions also play their part in denying a service but unfortunately for travellers, it seems that Northern, despite its antiquated rolling stock, frequently finds other reasons to cancel trains.
     
  20. 59CosG95

    59CosG95 Established Member

    Messages:
    4,240
    Joined:
    18 Aug 2013
    Location:
    WIM/PBO
    Also worth noting that 150s are only 75mph capable...the only Sprinters with higher speed are the 158s/159s. And even they can only hit 90mph.
     
  21. Southsider

    Southsider Member

    Messages:
    417
    Joined:
    10 Aug 2015
    I think you need to read the Scotrail HST thread!!
     
  22. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,313
    Joined:
    18 Feb 2012
    Location:
    Greater Manchester
    If you are expecting 769s to be faster than Sprinters on diesel, you are likely to be disappointed. Worth recalling this post from an experienced Northern driver:
     
  23. 59CosG95

    59CosG95 Established Member

    Messages:
    4,240
    Joined:
    18 Aug 2013
    Location:
    WIM/PBO
    I certainly have no high hopes for the 769s' acceleration capabilities, that much I want to make clear. I was just pointing out @tbtc's error on "two coach 100mph trains with commuter doors", because the only trains that fit that bill on Northern services are 195s.
     
  24. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,313
    Joined:
    18 Feb 2012
    Location:
    Greater Manchester
    But @tbtc 's post made clear that the comparison was really with 3-car 195s, as actually used on the Furness line, not with 15x's.
     
  25. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,313
    Joined:
    18 Feb 2012
    Location:
    Greater Manchester
    Short forms occur when there are insufficient serviceable units to work all the booked diagrams. Northern does not have surplus 319s sitting in sidings ready to take over from a failure, so frequently a 2-car DMU is substituted on a 319 diagram as the least worst option compared with cancellations. In turn that DMU has to be "robbed" from a 4-car diagram, causing another bunch of short forms.

    769s will likely be less reliable than 319s (more to go wrong) and so short forms will be more frequent on 769 diagrams than on the current 319 diagrams.
     
  26. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

    Messages:
    7,382
    Joined:
    13 May 2014
    Location:
    St Albans
    I know all that, but 319s are still available should the troublesome new keep playing up, as I said above in post #4083:
    ... pace. (typo corrected)

    Not necessarily, - see my post #4097.
     
  27. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,313
    Joined:
    18 Feb 2012
    Location:
    Greater Manchester
    So you expect cash-strapped Northern to order additional 769s just as spares? Equally Northern could lease more 319s right now to provide cover for failures. Instead it is returning 319s to storage as 331s enter traffic, in order to save on the lease costs.
    Northern 769s will run under the wires for a high proportion of their mileage - that is their raison d'etre. Stresses on the traction equipment will be similar to a 319.
     
  28. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

    Messages:
    6,328
    Joined:
    6 Jul 2012
    It's fine they've been reserved to run in the opposite direction to all those who walked to and from [insert workplace/school] where it was uphill in both directions when they were a lad.
     
  29. Andrew Holland

    Andrew Holland Member

    Messages:
    48
    Joined:
    7 Jun 2018
    Not so good then? I was only going by videos and media postings I saw, so passengers are not happy with them? Ok will check it out! I was going to mention the 442s but erm, well passengers did like them for the brief time they were back in service but, er, right, let's not dwell on that eh?
     
  30. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

    Messages:
    7,382
    Joined:
    13 May 2014
    Location:
    St Albans
    Which if maintained properly, would have similar availability to that which was there on the much more arduous duties on Thameslink diagrams.
     

Share This Page