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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

geoffk

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Would have made more sense to keep the current Alderley Edge/Stalybridge to Wigan NW service pattern but it seems Northern has caved in to pressure from Southport residents for an all-day service to Piccadilly (and a service to Bolton). I assume the traction change will now take place at Bolton rather than Lostock Jn on the move. Any point now in wiring to Wigan (except as a diversionary route)?
 
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Mogster

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Northern passengers must be a bit too precious. The 319s were in /4 service for 18 years, on one of the busiest commuter lines on either side of London. Passenger filled them every work morning and evening, when most of the centre seats were occupied typically for 30 minutes either side of the core. Standing passengers were packed to the doors yet the trains were still running with shorter dwells than many I've seen on Northern.
Given how many posts there have been about overloaded Pacers and 150s on Northern, I can't see where the 769s won't improve the provision considerably.
Which of the services on Northern routes are the 769s planned to be used on, and how many of those will be able to fill those trains anywhere near the levels that they carried over many years down here?

All the seats... and any other available space, is filled on the Alderley-Southport services I travel on. I’m not sure why people think the only crush loaded trains are within the M25.

We are normally given a 4 car 150, 142 or combo of either. 4 cars are inadequate, we need 6/8 cars, I don’t see how a 4 car 319 will change things much. A 319 is just a 150. It’s clear Northern need more capacity but with large numbers of 142s being pensioned off it’s hard to see what’s going to fill the gap even.
 

Bantamzen

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Northern passengers must be a bit too precious. The 319s were in /4 service for 18 years, on one of the busiest commuter lines on either side of London. Passenger filled them every work morning and evening, when most of the centre seats were occupied typically for 30 minutes either side of the core. Standing passengers were packed to the doors yet the trains were still running with shorter dwells than many I've seen on Northern.
Given how many posts there have been about overloaded Pacers and 150s on Northern, I can't see where the 769s won't improve the provision considerably.
Which of the services on Northern routes are the 769s planned to be used on, and how many of those will be able to fill those trains anywhere near the levels that they carried over many years down here?

Not on the right side of the Pennines, evening peak 333s (for example) leaving Leeds will always have every seat taken if needed. In the mornings its not uncommon for more to choose to stand, but these often seem to be the ones determined to make it to the gateline first, or those that like to charge towards their connection (even if the connection is the London sitting on the adjacent platform not due to leave for more than 10 minutes).

And whilst this does mean that you have to make (shock, horror) physical shoulder to shoulder contact for a bit, people around here seem to cope.
 

Grumpy Git

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Northern passengers must be a bit too precious. The 319s were in /4 service for 18 years, on one of the busiest commuter lines on either side of London. Passenger filled them every work morning and evening, when most of the centre seats were occupied typically for 30 minutes either side of the core. Standing passengers were packed to the doors yet the trains were still running with shorter dwells than many I've seen on Northern.
Given how many posts there have been about overloaded Pacers and 150s on Northern, I can't see where the 769s won't improve the provision considerably.
Which of the services on Northern routes are the 769s planned to be used on, and how many of those will be able to fill those trains anywhere near the levels that they carried over many years down here?

That was 30+ years ago, passengers expectations may have changed somewhat in the intervening years, (I worked on them briefly on a test train in 1988 when they were new)?
 

AM9

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See upthread:

This service carries commuters from Southport, Wigan, Bolton, Wilmslow and Stockport to Manchester and is currently worked by 4-car DMU formations. I understand it is rammed in the peaks (though only on the sections under the wires).

The route will require 5 diagrams in total from the December timetable change and so will need most of Northern's 8-strong 769 fleet if they eventually take over all the diagrams. This would leave 1 or 2 available for other routes depending on maintenance. My guess is that these will most likely be used on some of the Southport to Stalybridge via Bolton diagrams, which will provide the hourly stopper between Bolton and Victoria. This would minimise the number of crew depots/links that Northern would have to train on the 769.
Well there's plenty more 319s available for conversion or even running as EMUs. I doubt that there'll be any opportunities to buy suitable bi-modes for a few years, especially when the raw materials for more 769s are sitting in sidings. Once the class gets full approval, conversions could proceed at a
 

AM9

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That was 30+ years ago, passengers expectations may have changed somewhat in the intervening years, (I worked on them briefly on a test train in 1988 when they were new)?
But overcrowded Pacers and 150s are what you have now! Trains are still carrying MKI human beings. There are services running in London that have 35 year old 455s, 28 year old 321s, 1973 stock tube trains. No reason why trains that can run fully loaded down south should be older than what those in Lancashire have. Argument works both ways. The 769s are a stop gap allowing Pacers to be withdrawn. In the short-term there is no plan B! If you are saying that you might as well keep the existing stock, then they can't be that bad.
 

notlob.divad

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Well there's plenty more 319s available for conversion or even running as EMUs. I doubt that there'll be any opportunities to buy suitable bi-modes for a few years, especially when the raw materials for more 769s are sitting in sidings. Once the class gets full approval, conversions could proceed at a

Which is all well and good, and am one that thinks converting them all to remove diesel under the wire running would be a good move. However how many platforms in the North are able to take an 8 car 319 formation? Outside the major city centres there are not many. 6 cars would struggle at the majority.
 

AM9

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Which is all well and good, and am one that thinks converting them all to remove diesel under the wire running would be a good move. However how many platforms in the North are able to take an 8 car 319 formation? Outside the major city centres there are not many. 6 cars would struggle at the majority.
So whatever was run, it would be limited to about 80m length. The only remedies would be more frequent 4-car trains or (better) for NR to bite the bullet and extend the offending platforms. If the second was doen, at least it would be a permanent fix.
 

AM9

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All the seats... and any other available space, is filled on the Alderley-Southport services I travel on. I’m not sure why people think the only crush loaded trains are within the M25.

We are normally given a 4 car 150, 142 or combo of either. 4 cars are inadequate, we need 6/8 cars, I don’t see how a 4 car 319 will change things much. A 319 is just a 150. It’s clear Northern need more capacity but with large numbers of 142s being pensioned off it’s hard to see what’s going to fill the gap even.
A 4-car 319/769 would always be given, (as opposed to normally), it can't be anything less so that's an improvement for a start. As somebody up thread has said, a 319 is not just a 150, or even two 150s, - the interior is much more suited to high density services and there is more room because there are two cabs less and one PRM toilet less. See post #4086 above, the other remedy would be for the short platforms to be extended, but if the problem is capacity related, given the extensive electrified lines now in the North-west, maybe some infill is overdue and a flexible resource like the 769s could then be better used elsewhere.
 

edwin_m

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That last sentence is key whether they run much of their diagrams on diesel or not, - key is the volume of diesel emissions in the environs of cities, - in Northern's case, Manchester, Liverpool, and even some places east of the Pennines should they be deployed there.
Has any figure of diesel consumption been released for the 769s. A comparison between a single 4-car unit in diesel mode and a pair of 150s or 156s would be very interesting. The 769s more recent engine design might plus the potential for diesel-electric to have a better power/torque curve for their intended duties notwithstanding their higher top speed limit, might well negate the theoretical impediment of the additional weight that they carry.
The Euro standard applicable to a diesel engine is the one in force at the time of making the engine, not the train. I'm not sure which one this was for the 769s, but the pollutants that are immediately harmful to people nearby (so excluding CO2) will be more limited on these trains than on any of Northern's other DMUs except the 195s.
 

Llama

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Would have made more sense to keep the current Alderley Edge/Stalybridge to Wigan NW service pattern but it seems Northern has caved in to pressure from Southport residents for an all-day service to Piccadilly (and a service to Bolton). I assume the traction change will now take place at Bolton rather than Lostock Jn on the move. Any point now in wiring to Wigan (except as a diversionary route)?
It was never the plan to change from diesel to electric traction (and vice versa) at Lostock Jn, always Bolton.
 

tbtc

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They are basically a 150 with a pantograph. They would be totally unsuitable for Barrow, Windermere or other longer distance services

So "four coach 100mph trains with commuter doors bad, two coach 100mph trains with commuter doors good"?

(I know that 195s are two or three coaches, but that wouldn't fit as neatly into an Animal Farm comparison)

Essentially, like most things on the Forum these days, it seems to come down to the type of seats. Fit some posher seats in a 319 and people will accept it as a (long) replacement for a (shorter) 195 on the Barrow/ Windermere services. Seriously. Seats are like the lipstick on a pig - a great way of distracting enthusiasts between one type of train and another.
 

Roose

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Changing the layout (if thought necessary) is an option and it need not be a prohibitively expensive option either. The point is that they aren't the 'wrong sort of train', they're the right sort of train if they have the correct interior.

In which case the 319/4 layout is perfectly suitable as a short-term solution for such journeys as Barrow-Manchester Airport.
By the time refurbishment to Northern Connect standard took place, recent experience suggests 'short-term' would have been and gone. Anyway, no short-term solution needed. New trains are already in service which do meet the Northern Connect specification.
 

AM9

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By the time refurbishment to Northern Connect standard took place, recent experience suggests 'short-term' would have been and gone. Anyway, no short-term solution needed. New trains are already in service which do meet the Northern Connect specification.
But are there enough of them* because there won't be any more, plus they are simple diesels so in a few years, they won't be welcome in city centre stations. So far their infant mortality record seems to rule against there being enough to cover the planned diagrams.
 

AndrewE

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By the time refurbishment to Northern Connect standard took place, recent experience suggests 'short-term' would have been and gone. Anyway, no short-term solution needed. New trains are already in service which do meet the Northern Connect specification.
except that there are not yet many "new trains already in service," I only wish there were!
All
the trains I have been on between Manchester and Leeds are still grossly overcrowded, I have had to travel from Cheshire to Yorkshire twice this week, and not one east of Manchester was longer than 3 cars or on time. Admittedly that's a TPE (passengers') problem, but really splitting the services only serves to distract and divide the blame. You might see a loco-hauled train, or even an 802 (only 1 of each in service from what I can see) flashing past in the opposite direction but I have not found any relief from our problems of the last 5 years or so.
On Northern alone, I have had a ride or two on a 319 and they were great, 4 coaches instead of 3 on the previous stock, and much better than a 2-car to Blackpool, but we haven't seen a major upgrade yet - although this evening I did notice a lot of trains strengthened by a 142 stuck on to a couple of other DMUs out of Manchester Pic. Maybe the passengers on those trains were grateful, and I suppose it's better than nothing...
 

Mogster

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A 4-car 319/769 would always be given, (as opposed to normally), it can't be anything less so that's an improvement for a start. As somebody up thread has said, a 319 is not just a 150, or even two 150s, - the interior is much more suited to high density services and there is more room because there are two cabs less and one PRM toilet less. See post #4086 above, the other remedy would be for the short platforms to be extended, but if the problem is capacity related, given the extensive electrified lines now in the North-west, maybe some infill is overdue and a flexible resource like the 769s could then be better used elsewhere.

I agree with the advantage of 319s always being 4 car. With the reliability problems with Northerns 319s though I’m concerned the lack of flexibility leads to the possibility of “no train” being available rather than a short formed service as happens now.
 
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They are 30 year old outer suburban trains. Nobody in their right mind would spend large sums of money on 30 years old trains totally redoing their interiors. The whole point of the 769 project is that it was supposed to be cheap and cheerful short term solution.

Aren't ScotRail doing exactly that with 40 year old HSTs just now? Seems to be working out ok for them and the passengers love them, the point is a properly done refurb when the underneaths are still ok and reliable is perfectly acceptable from a passenger point, the refurbished HSTs in Scotland are a step up and away from their previous and very, very dated configuration. Passengers will perceive an old train as "new" if the interior looks and feels new...
 

AM9

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I agree with the advantage of 319s always being 4 car. With the reliability problems with Northerns 319s though I’m concerned the lack of flexibility leads to the possibility of “no train” being available rather than a short formed service as happens now.
Well 'no train' is a risk anywhere because even new trains fail, (see the 195/331 thread). The 319s were worked hard through to their end on TL and they did have failures but mostly they turned up when needed. The 769s will be using the same hardware for traction but when on diesel, the motors will be far less taxed as they are continuously far above the genset's maximum output. The diesel engines and generators are new and of recent design so once they are bedded in, they should be as reliable as those on a new train.
Yes The weather and track conditions also play their part in denying a service but unfortunately for travellers, it seems that Northern, despite its antiquated rolling stock, frequently finds other reasons to cancel trains.
 

59CosG95

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So "four coach 100mph trains with commuter doors bad, two coach 100mph trains with commuter doors good"?

(I know that 195s are two or three coaches, but that wouldn't fit as neatly into an Animal Farm comparison)

Essentially, like most things on the Forum these days, it seems to come down to the type of seats. Fit some posher seats in a 319 and people will accept it as a (long) replacement for a (shorter) 195 on the Barrow/ Windermere services. Seriously. Seats are like the lipstick on a pig - a great way of distracting enthusiasts between one type of train and another.
Also worth noting that 150s are only 75mph capable...the only Sprinters with higher speed are the 158s/159s. And even they can only hit 90mph.
 

Southsider

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Aren't ScotRail doing exactly that with 40 year old HSTs just now? Seems to be working out ok for them and the passengers love them, the point is a properly done refurb when the underneaths are still ok and reliable is perfectly acceptable from a passenger point, the refurbished HSTs in Scotland are a step up and away from their previous and very, very dated configuration. Passengers will perceive an old train as "new" if the interior looks and feels new...
I think you need to read the Scotrail HST thread!!
 

Greybeard33

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Also worth noting that 150s are only 75mph capable...the only Sprinters with higher speed are the 158s/159s. And even they can only hit 90mph.
If you are expecting 769s to be faster than Sprinters on diesel, you are likely to be disappointed. Worth recalling this post from an experienced Northern driver:
As someone who drives 319s and all sprinter classes regularly, I think I should add this.

319s are awful up to 25-30mph. Consistently slower accelerating to that speed than any 15x unit. And that is when running on AC where full power is available from the transformer, and power notch 4 gives the full 653 amps. Above 30mph though they are much quicker than a sprinter unit to about 80mph. But again at that point any half-decent 158 wipes the floor with them to 90mph.
Given that the power available for traction on a 769 using the diesel engines is going to be a little over half (~550kW) that on AC mode, the ~7 tonnes of non-adhesive dead weight on the DTS vehicles, and the fact that when using 'DC mode' which the diesel the engines are used the unit will (unless modifications are made) be restricted to 450-odd amps under full traction power I fail to see how even having the engines running at optimal speed is really relevant. 769s will be slower than 319s even on AC.

The adhesion issue is definitely relevant. Even just on a wet rail it is very easy to make a 319 slip under power where even a 158 would rarely slip. Adding more weight in a 769 isn't going to go very well in October and November. I hope the sand boxes have been enlarged.
 

59CosG95

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If you are expecting 769s to be faster than Sprinters on diesel, you are likely to be disappointed. Worth recalling this post from an experienced Northern driver:
I certainly have no high hopes for the 769s' acceleration capabilities, that much I want to make clear. I was just pointing out @tbtc's error on "two coach 100mph trains with commuter doors", because the only trains that fit that bill on Northern services are 195s.
 

Greybeard33

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A 4-car 319/769 would always be given, (as opposed to normally), it can't be anything less so that's an improvement for a start.
Short forms occur when there are insufficient serviceable units to work all the booked diagrams. Northern does not have surplus 319s sitting in sidings ready to take over from a failure, so frequently a 2-car DMU is substituted on a 319 diagram as the least worst option compared with cancellations. In turn that DMU has to be "robbed" from a 4-car diagram, causing another bunch of short forms.

769s will likely be less reliable than 319s (more to go wrong) and so short forms will be more frequent on 769 diagrams than on the current 319 diagrams.
 

AM9

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Short forms occur when there are insufficient serviceable units to work all the booked diagrams. Northern does not have surplus 319s sitting in sidings ready to take over from a failure, so frequently a 2-car DMU is substituted on a 319 diagram as the least worst option compared with cancellations. In turn that DMU has to be "robbed" from a 4-car diagram, causing another bunch of short forms.
I know all that, but 319s are still available should the troublesome new keep playing up, as I said above in post #4083:
Well there's plenty more 319s available for conversion or even running as EMUs. I doubt that there'll be any opportunities to buy suitable bi-modes for a few years, especially when the raw materials for more 769s are sitting in sidings. Once the class gets full approval, conversions could proceed at a
... pace. (typo corrected)

769s will likely be less reliable than 319s (more to go wrong) and so short forms will be more frequent on 769 diagrams than on the current 319 diagrams.
Not necessarily, - see my post #4097.
 

Greybeard33

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I know all that, but 319s are still available should the troublesome new keep playing up, as I said above in post #4083:
So you expect cash-strapped Northern to order additional 769s just as spares? Equally Northern could lease more 319s right now to provide cover for failures. Instead it is returning 319s to storage as 331s enter traffic, in order to save on the lease costs.
Not necessarily, - see my post #4097.
Northern 769s will run under the wires for a high proportion of their mileage - that is their raison d'etre. Stresses on the traction equipment will be similar to a 319.
 

The Ham

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How long before they try them up a hill, I wonder? Perhaps they will be reserved for flat routes?

;)

It's fine they've been reserved to run in the opposite direction to all those who walked to and from [insert workplace/school] where it was uphill in both directions when they were a lad.
 
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I think you need to read the Scotrail HST thread!!

Not so good then? I was only going by videos and media postings I saw, so passengers are not happy with them? Ok will check it out! I was going to mention the 442s but erm, well passengers did like them for the brief time they were back in service but, er, right, let's not dwell on that eh?
 

AM9

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... Northern 769s will run under the wires for a high proportion of their mileage - that is their raison d'etre. Stresses on the traction equipment will be similar to a 319.
Which if maintained properly, would have similar availability to that which was there on the much more arduous duties on Thameslink diagrams.
 

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