Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[jonnyfan]

Thanks for that update

On 1115 Southport to Alderley Edge getting extra mileage on Diesel been diverted along Atherton line.

What's the line speed on Atherton line. Either driver didn't want to use power too much but we didn't exceed 50

I believe it's only 50mph along the Atherton line.

 

[D9006]

Saying that 6 late from Hindley turned into 2 early at Salford crescent so no need to push it

 

[Jozhua]

Been as it's LGBT month:

I do have to admit, the 769's are kind of trans icons, starting their lives as electric and transitioning to diesel.

One of the few Pan-locomotives out there, compatible with power from not two, but three sources!

(I am supportive and also member of the community, just doing this in good humour lol)

How would you actually do that though?

Do you propose to replace the whole drive train during the conversion? or do you plan to have an electric drivetrain from the start? if you are planning on an electric drivetrain from the start it seems to me that you may as well also have the pantograph and transformer from the start and make it a bi-mode.

My consideration is to fit the body shell with an area to mount a pantograph.

But it may be sensible for GBR to have trains that can be converted to one or the other, having a cheaper upfront cost and actually putting pressure on the government to electrify routes.

 

[175001]

50mph indeed is the line speed on the Atherton line

 

[D9006]

A good day so far 5 on Alderley Edge diagrams(431/34/50/56/58) and 1 on Stalybridge(424), new one too 769431, I’ve not seen that one out before.

 

[py_megapixel]

I've heard from a friend who lives on the Southport-Alderley route that the non-769 diagrams are mostly 2-car (not 4-car) 156s and 150s - not great!

 

[AMD]

I've heard from a friend who lives on the Southport-Alderley route that the non-769 diagrams are mostly 2-car (not 4-car) 156s and 150s - not great!

There's one diagram between Southport and Staly that is booked as a single 150, but the diagram runs contra peak in terms of passenger numbers. Having worked it there's no need for a 4 car train on it. Anything else is shortformed.

 

[Ribbleman]

I've heard from a friend who lives on the Southport-Alderley route that the non-769 diagrams are mostly 2-car (not 4-car) 156s and 150s - not great!

That is often the case, the problem being that Northern has insufficient spare stock to cover in full for more than the odd one or two failed 769s. The 15 x 156s to come from East Midlands are not likely to appear soon given the problems at EMR. Given that delay I wonder if thought has been given to applying for a further dispensation to use 153s until those 156s arrive. 153s can’t go to Southport but could be used on many other routes.

 

[py_megapixel]

Having worked it there's no need for a 4 car train on it.

The times I've used it (mostly pre lockdown) the 4 cars absolutely have been needed. Sometimes 2-car shortforms have been absolutely packed. Whether those passengers are back though I don't know

153s can’t go to Southport but could be used on many other routes.

Why not? I imagine a 156 strengthened by a 153 would be reasonable for that route.

 

[scrapy]

The times I've used it (mostly pre lockdown) the 4 cars absolutely have been needed. Sometimes 2-car shortforms have been absolutely packed. Whether those passengers are back though I don't know

Why not? I imagine a 156 strengthened by a 153 would be reasonable for that route.

153s are banned through Wigan Wallgate for clearance reasons.

 

[Jamesrob637]

There's one diagram between Southport and Staly that is booked as a single 150, but the diagram runs contra peak in terms of passenger numbers. Having worked it there's no need for a 4 car train on it. Anything else is shortformed.

Peak isn't particularly "peak" at the moment though! Counter-peak flows can be/often are just as busy right now. No excuse for booked 2-car anymore: we're in 2021.

 

[D9006]

The peak is more Saturday the 769 travelled on Saturday into Manchester was pretty full, front coach had standing passengers on but front section screened off for travelling staff

And the rear section of rear carriage was also screened off too, surely only one section should be , I would assume be the rear section with the guard

 

[py_megapixel]

And the rear section of rear carriage was also screened off too, surely only one section should be , I would assume be the rear section with the guard

Well, which section is the rear and front changes, and there presumably isn't enough time to move the barriers/tape around at the termini.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The peak is more Saturday the 769 travelled on Saturday into Manchester was pretty full, front coach had standing passengers on but front section screened off for travelling staff

And the rear section of rear carriage was also screened off too, surely only one section should be , I would assume be the rear section with the guard

Yeah just sit in the front bit regardless. In fact nothing should be cordoned off from Monday.

 

[childwallblues]

Yeah just sit in the front bit regardless. In fact nothing should be cordoned off from Monday.

I travelled yesterday from Wigan Wallgate to Salford Crescent on 769431 returning to Wigan on 769434. Both units were running on time and working well.

 

[sportzbar]

Yeah just sit in the front bit regardless. In fact nothing should be cordoned off from Monday.

I agree with you that the front of the unit shouldn't be cordoned off but if the turn around is tight then it saves having to move people from that section of the train therefore causing delays.

As for "nothing should be cordoned off from Monday" I must ask why you say this? As far as I'm aware the date for all restrictions being lifted has been put back 4 weeks and there were also unconfirmed caveats that public transport would still have the restrictions in place.

If you think nothing should be cordoned off is this because it would increase seating capacity? If so then I agree it would but then where would the Covid safe area of this particular type of unit be for the guard?

As it stands if the guard does not have a Covid safe area of work them they are well within their rights to invoke the worksafe procedure, which means the train gets cancelled.......

 

[Killingworth]

We're digressing a little from 769s here as we get the same issue on 195 and 331s. However the 769 we used on the first day of public operation probably had as much available space as the Pacer +15x combination I'd previously used.

Certainly better because it's possible to move along the train to equalise the loading. Curiously that often doesn't happen, possibly due to users going for the door nearest where they enter the platform!

However I've noted at least some of the 195s are no longer cordoned off, which is just as well when users are being shoehorned into busy trains! Distancing is a nightmare to administer.

 

[AM9]

Back on topic (slightly*), it seems from the threads on the three deployments of class 769s that their running is at last becoming more regular whether on training, mileage accumultion or full service. Can anybody connected with them here say whether there is any co-ordination of the running experiences or pooling of failure/performance data? Obviously Porterbrook/Wabtec/Brush have a common responsibility in getting the trains into revenue earning service, but driver experience and other operational staff inputs may also contribute to the process.
* I had to pick one of the three main threads on the 769s, and this one covering the Northern requirement was the earliest and seems to address most of the technical issues that have arisen.

 

[NoMorePacers]

We're digressing a ittle from 769s here as we get the same issue on 195 and 331s. However the 769 we used on the first day of public operation probably had as much available space as the Pacer +15x combination I'd previously used.

Certainly better because it's possible to move along the train to equalise the loading. Curiously that often doesn't happen, possibly due to users going for the door nearest where they enter the platform!

However I've noted at least some of the 195s are no longer cordoned off, which is just as well when users are being shoehorned into busy trains! Distancing is a nightmare to administer.

The cordoning off of parts of trains seems to be a west side thing - I haven't seen a single bit of cordoning, or tape, or "seat out of use" signs on any Northern train in Yorkshire since I started going out again at the start of the month.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I agree with you that the front of the unit shouldn't be cordoned off but if the turn around is tight then it saves having to move people from that section of the train therefore causing delays.

As for "nothing should be cordoned off from Monday" I must ask why you say this? As far as I'm aware the date for all restrictions being lifted has been put back 4 weeks and there were also unconfirmed caveats that public transport would still have the restrictions in place.

If you think nothing should be cordoned off is this because it would increase seating capacity? If so then I agree it would but then where would the Covid safe area of this particular type of unit be for the guard?

As it stands if the guard does not have a Covid safe area of work them they are well within their rights to invoke the worksafe procedure, which means the train gets cancelled.......

If a guard doesn't feel safe they should stay home and let somebody who doesn't have as much fear do their job. There are plenty still on furlough who are struggling to make ends meet! Let's not get alluded to thinking that, just because 95% of public places are back open, everybody is suddenly and magically back off furlough. Yes, the numbers on furlough have decreased immensely since March/April, no denying, but there are still a fair amount on it!

Think of the effects a cancelled service will have on the following one (and, to a lesser extent, the previous one, since people are getting more savvy nowadays and checking stuff such as Journey Check prior to leaving home/the place where they are).

The cordoning off of parts of trains seems to be a west side thing - I haven't seen a single bit of cordoning, or tape, or "seat out of use" signs on any Northern train in Yorkshire since I started going out again at the start of the month.

Proud to be a Yorkshireman even if a slightly "plastic" one! Seriously considering moving back over 't'other side' now!

 

[Gricer99]

I travelled yesterday from Wigan Wallgate to Salford Crescent on 769431 returning to Wigan on 769434. Both units were running on time and working well.

Yesterday wasn’t a good day for the 769s on the SOP-ALD route...

Realtime Trains | Departures from Hindley all day on 16/06/2021

Train information at Hindley all day on 16/06/2021. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[sportzbar]

If a guard doesn't feel safe they should stay home and let somebody who doesn't have as much fear do their job.

I'll just say that this is your opinion and yes you are entitled to that. However the procedures in place have been put there in agreement with the company, the union and the staff.

Can I ask where you work? It's just that in my opinion you would not like it if someone came into your workplace and told you how to do your job safely.

Yes it is a personal choice for the staff member to erect the barriers but don't forget this is their workplace. I would imagine in 4-5 weeks these barriers will go with a change in the agreement.

Apologies to everyone else for going off topic I just felt that this had to be pointed out...

 

[AM9]

Yesterday wasn’t a good day for the 769s on the SOP-ALD route...

Realtime Trains | Departures from Hindley all day on 16/06/2021

Train information at Hindley all day on 16/06/2021. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Any reasons given for the delays and cancellations?

 

[Grumpy Git]

Any reasons given for the delays and cancellations?

The 769's are rubbish and not fit for purpose.*

*My own opinion based on the information available in the public domain.

 

[Phillipimo]

According to RealTimeTrains RTT:

Realtime Trains - Departures from Southport

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

One 2 car out this morning - a 150 on a Stalybridge service.
Six 769s out - 434, 456, 431, 442, 458, 450.

Not a bad start today.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I'll just say that this is your opinion and yes you are entitled to that. However the procedures in place have been put there in agreement with the company, the union and the staff.

Can I ask where you work? It's just that in my opinion you would not like it if someone came into your workplace and told you how to do your job safely.

Yes it is a personal choice for the staff member to erect the barriers but don't forget this is their workplace. I would imagine in 4-5 weeks these barriers will go with a change in the agreement.

Apologies to everyone else for going off topic I just felt that this had to be pointed out...

I'm temporarily back in a very COVID secure office. I pass people in corridors every day without the minutest fear. Masks are mandatory everywhere between the front door and your desk with the exception of sat down in the canteen. I feel as safe here as when I worked from home!

 

[AM9]

The 769's are rubbish and not fit for purpose.*

*My own opinion based on the information available in the public domain.

So you don't have any official information. Trains aren't withdrawn from a timetabled diagram based on public opinions.

 

[175001]

I'm temporarily back in a very COVID secure office. I pass people in corridors every day without the minutest fear. Masks are mandatory everywhere between the front door and your desk with the exception of sat down in the canteen. I feel as safe here as when I worked from home!

So you're comparing being sat in an office, to working a train, stopping at current covid hotpots, interacting with people from these towns which has high infection rates?

A very poor argument

 

[37201xoIM]

So you're comparing being sat in an office, to working a train, stopping at current covid hotpots, interacting with people from these towns which has high infection rates?

A very poor argument

... and with people who may or may not choose to wear masks on the trains.

BTW (appreciating this is off-topic!) note that the closing-off of sections of trains isn't restricted to 769s: it's done on 195s, 331s and 170s, for the same reasons. Hopefully the need will disappear soon anyway!

 

[Jamesrob637]

So you're comparing being sat in an office, to working a train, stopping at current covid hotpots, interacting with people from these towns which has high infection rates?

A very poor argument

I don't know where people in the office live! Could be some from hotspots for all I know. There aren't as many here as there usually would be, but that's probably true for 98% of UK office buildings right now.