Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[gmaguire]

Not only are they crap but they were always crap. What sort of EMU is purely friction braked, even if you forgive the steel body, single motor car and Ashbourne seats?

When they were on Thameslink I found the seats on the 319s to be quite comfortable.

 

[jfollows]

When they were on Thameslink I found the seats on the 319s to be quite comfortable.

They're perfectly comfortable in my opinion also, I used a 319 from Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street (when it was a semi-fast service) and had no problem with seat comfort. However it's subjective. I'd also rather have a less comfortable but more reliable unit (such as the 323) because I've never had these break down on me, whereas I've had a 319 be delayed because of faults essentially because it was knackered, and the 769s are of course a further level of unreliability!

 

[Neptune]

When they were on Thameslink I found the seats on the 319s to be quite comfortable.

Remember that on this forum certain posters believe that their opinions on seats is gospel and nobody else could possibly have an opposing opinion despite seating comfort being subjective.

See how many times the phrase ‘ironing board’ is used as a throw away comment for any seat that is put into new stock now even though the original seat that gave them that awful moniker in the first place has had different applications to it’s base taking away the flat ‘ironing board’ element.

 

[Mikey C]

The original seats on the PEPs and 455s were awful, so things definitely weren't always better in the old days!

 

[david l]

Aside from being an overreaction, it was always completely illogical. In AC mode, a 769 has no components in use which are not common to 319s. If anything they should have been banned from running in Diesel mode. The unit that ran out of fuel (424) is still at Southport, still has no fuel in it and can’t be driven back to Wigan with the leading cab on the dead unit. The rescue unit (446) which it is still coupled to will have to run around, or it will have to run back as a 12 car with another unit at the front and this movement will obviously have to wait until after the strike.

Assuming the ban was imposed by Network Rail, will Northern receive compensation from them? Even the simplest of operating costs, untaxed liquid Diesel is much more expensive than 25kV traction electricity.

Can't be 446 as rescue unit as 446 doesn't exist. 442 or 448 perhaps?
In any case, will be an interesting rescue when it eventually happens.
The days are long gone of whistling up a spare 20/25/31/37/40/45/47/50/60 from SP...........but there is still an 08 there

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aside from being an overreaction, it was always completely illogical. In AC mode, a 769 has no components in use which are not common to 319s. If anything they should have been banned from running in Diesel mode. The unit that ran out of fuel (424) is still at Southport, still has no fuel in it and can’t be driven back to Wigan with the leading cab on the dead unit. The rescue unit (446) which it is still coupled to will have to run around, or it will have to run back as a 12 car with another unit at the front and this movement will obviously have to wait until after the strikes

Can't they just truck some diesel in?

 

[Killingworth]

Can't they just truck some diesel in?

I thought that such an obvious solution I didnt suggest it days ago.

 

[Occtraveller]

Regarding fuelling - is it like a petrol station pump, where the filler clicks off when the back-pressure indicates that the tank is (almost) full, or more like an airliner where a specific quantity of fuel is programmed into the dispenser?

The auto shut-off mechanism never worked very well with my 2008 Prius. I found it frequently cut off way before the tank was actually full, when holding the nozzle in the normal position so that the hose runs vertically up to the nozzle. I found that rotating 90°, so that the hose ran from the back of the car towards the nozzle, was more reliable. (Maybe because that model was a 'world car' designed primarily for the North American market?)

I'd assume that it's an automatic thing. I wouldn't like to be there holding the lever for 1000 litres or more, it's bad enough for 45. (Though I imagine the flow rate is much higher!)

If instead it's a specific quantity of fuel to load, someone has to measure the current level and work out what quantity is then needed. Not too difficult maths, but you need a good gauge to see the current level and an accurate knowledge of the capacity. If the gauges aren't clear or accurate, under-fuelling could well occur.

It also doesn't sound like the timetable allowed much time for refuelling, so mistakes could happen under time pressure. Errors usually have systemic reasons, they're not just down to one individual making a mistake.

I'm reminded of Air Canada's "Gimli Glider", where a Boeing 767 ran out of fuel mid-air due to repeated errors in calculating the necessary refill quantity. Although train fitters shouldn't have to deal with allowing for the density of the fuel!

I suppose in both cases, you would want a back-stop using the other system (quantity or shut off) to prevent possible spillage due to over-filling. In the case of a calculated quantity, in case of a miscalculation/misreading leading to an overfill; in case of an auto-stop, in case the mechanism fails to operate.

 

[jamesst]

Regarding fuelling - is it like a petrol station pump, where the filler clicks off when the back-pressure indicates that the tank is (almost) full, or more like an airliner where a specific quantity of fuel is programmed into the dispenser?

The auto shut-off mechanism never worked very well with my 2008 Prius. I found it frequently cut off way before the tank was actually full, when holding the nozzle in the normal position so that the hose runs vertically up to the nozzle. I found that rotating 90°, so that the hose ran from the back of the car towards the nozzle, was more reliable. (Maybe because that model was a 'world car' designed primarily for the North American market?)

I'd assume that it's an automatic thing. I wouldn't like to be there holding the lever for 1000 litres or more, it's bad enough for 45. (Though I imagine the flow rate is much higher!)

If instead it's a specific quantity of fuel to load, someone has to measure the current level and work out what quantity is then needed. Not too difficult maths, but you need a good gauge to see the current level and an accurate knowledge of the capacity. If the gauges aren't clear or accurate, under-fuelling could well occur.

It also doesn't sound like the timetable allowed much time for refuelling, so mistakes could happen under time pressure. Errors usually have systemic reasons, they're not just down to one individual making a mistake.

I'm reminded of Air Canada's "Gimli Glider", where a Boeing 767 ran out of fuel mid-air due to repeated errors in calculating the necessary refill quantity. Although train fitters shouldn't have to deal with allowing for the density of the fuel!

I suppose in both cases, you would want a back-stop using the other system (quantity or shut off) to prevent possible spillage due to over-filling. In the case of a calculated quantity, in case of a miscalculation/misreading leading to an overfill; in case of an auto-stop, in case the mechanism fails to operate.

I had it the other way round with my old fault ridden astra. The pump didn't click off and I got sprayed with petrol, that was fun!

 

[Clarence Yard]

It’s all done by the back pressure cutting off the fuel flow when the tank is (almost) completely full. The fuel flow pressure is set so you don’t overcome the non return valve and overfill, blowing the tank up in the process and potentially bending the underframe.

It’s incredibly reliable and these days you are supposed to fuel on proper aprons so any spillage goes into interceptors.

On the railway, you are always supposed to fill to capacity every time a unit/loco is booked on a depot for fuel and it is up to Control to manage the fuel range, not the driver. On BR if a loco ran out of fuel because someone got it wrong it was classed as “mismanagement” and a Form 1 disciplinary charge was usually the result.

 

[AndrewE]

A 9-car Pendolino has 3 VCBs, one for connecting each pantograph (on coaches C and H) and the third (also on coach H)to energise the transformer at the other end of the train via the 25kV roof cable (busline). The train runs with a single pantograph raised, usually the rear one.
In normal formation (1st class at London end) the pantograph on coach C will be raised heading south and the pantograph on coach H will be raised heading north. Heading south the main VCB is closed on coach C and the busline VCB is closed on coach H. Heading north the main VCB and busline VCB on coach H are both closed.
When the train approaches a neutral section the APC (Automatic Power Control) opens all VCBs simultaneously at the first APC magnet. After crossing the neutral section the train passes the second APC magnet and the VCBs re-close sequentially (main VCB followed 4 seconds later by the busline VCB). This is to minimise the inrush currents when the transformers are energised.
If you are sat in coach H then when running south you will hear the busline VCB open and re-close at each neutral section. However when running north you will hear the main VCB and busline VCB open together as entering the neutral section and then the main VCB close followed by the busline VCB on exiting the neutral section.
If you are sat in coach C you will hear the main VCB operate at neutral sections when running south but no VCB operation when running north.
(An 11-car Pendolino has a further VCB on coach U that closes 4 seconds after the busline VCB)

Thanks for the detail. I never imagined that a circuit breaker would make as much noise when it reconnected as when it was busy quenching an arc on breaking.

 

[nightflyian]

Not sure what's on this afternoon the 14:50 2W16 ALD - SOP gets cancelled and then proceeds as 5W16 to turnback sidings at MCV. Then 14:15 2K89 is diverted en route to MCV then proceeds as 5T22 north towards Newton Heath. This also left late due coupling issues at Southport ?

Both look to be 769's. Hopefully not another issue for these troublesome units ?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Not sure what's on this afternoon the 14:50 2W16 ALD - SOP gets cancelled and then proceeds as 5W16 to turnback sidings at MCV. Then 14:15 2K89 is diverted en route to MCV then proceeds as 5T22 north towards Newton Heath. This also left late due coupling issues at Southport ?

Both look to be 769's. Hopefully not another issue for these troublesome units ?

Don't act surprised. They're trouble with a capital T.

 

[Geeves]

769458 was diverted to Vic and then NH for fuel, it came back off later as 5Z85 and rescued 769431 from the turnback and went to Allerton

769442 also came off NH as 5K81 at 1600 and went empty to Wigan to restart work there

769448 and 769456 were the other 769s out.

If it goes less than 3 769s they all have to go hence why 442 came out at 1600 as per information from control.

Another day of 769 fun!

 

[nightflyian]

Hi Geeves

Thanks for the update on 769's this afternoon. I thought something more serious was going down especially with Northern's Journeycheck generating a new issue for a delayed service. Coupling issues on a 769 during the day is not one I would expect to see . Early morning yes, as I have seen 2x 769 of 8 carriages at Southport and decouple with issues into 2 services.

Like you say another fun day at the office with Class 769 !

 

[Geeves]

Not a problem, I am not sure on the coupling problem but I do know from a friend who drives the 769s his was seriously poorly at Bolton earlier! Not sure which one he was on, lots of 25K pops and bangs and the various faces of scared children on the platform haha

 

[D365]

Not a problem, I am not sure on the coupling problem but I do know from a friend who drives the 769s his was seriously poorly at Bolton earlier! Not sure which one he was on, lots of 25K pops and bangs and the various faces of scared children on the platform haha

Not a fault caused by the 769 conversion, at least!

 

[wrinkley]

During my daily one hour dog walking routine along the Middlebrook I usually see two services which should be 769s. Just recently, they have all been 769s, is their reliability improving, or have I just been lucky.

 

[323235]

Have they managed to fix the switchover faults and will they ever switchover on the move?

 

[Gricer99]

On the 6.56 from Hindley, bang on time. 434 got to Bolton on time and the panto wouldn't connect. Left Bolton on diesel at 7.18 8 mins late. Spirited run down to Salford Crescent won back a couple of minutes.

 

[D365]

Have they managed to fix the switchover faults and will they ever switchover on the move?

I don’t recall a rolling changeover ever being planned. The 319s were never capable of it.

 

[Kite159]

I guess 769431 has broken down again as I've not seen it out this week?

 

[507020]

I don’t recall a rolling changeover ever being planned. The 319s were never capable of it.

That is the most important point. It doesn’t matter how possible it is to start and stop the engines while moving because the underlying 319s will never be able to switch between AC and DC modes without stopping.

 

[td97]

Is it permitted for these to change to electric when stopped at a signal and running on diesel, but before the station changeover location. For example (towards Manchester from Wigan) at one of the signals between Lostock and Bolton, or (towards Manchester from Stalybridge) just east of Victoria?

 

[D365]

Is it permitted for these to change to electric when stopped at a signal and running on diesel, but before the station changeover location. For example (towards Manchester from Wigan) at one of the signals between Lostock and Bolton, or (towards Manchester from Stalybridge) just east of Victoria?

I’d be surprised if it was, as a 319 (or 313) essentially has to be shut down in order to change voltage.

 

[Geeves]

I think due to the finicky nature of the change over, even from the very start it was decided that change over would only be at certain locations where other trains were able to pass or a fitter was on location.

 

[175001]

Is it permitted for these to change to electric when stopped at a signal and running on diesel, but before the station changeover location. For example (towards Manchester from Wigan) at one of the signals between Lostock and Bolton, or (towards Manchester from Stalybridge) just east of Victoria?

It is not. Changeover has to take place at designated locations ie Manchester Victoria, Bolton and Salford Crescent, on the down, if diverting via Atherton.

The 0636 Vic - Southport which when it is a 769, has to in diesel mode from Victoria due to traction performance issues.

 

[507020]

It is not. Changeover has to take place at designated locations ie Manchester Victoria, Bolton and Salford Crescent, on the down, if diverting via Atherton.

Salford Crescent is bi-directional. What happens if the 769 in electric mode is routed into the up platform when heading in the down direction towards Atherton?

The 0636 Vic - Southport which when it is a 769, has to in diesel mode from Victoria due to traction performance issues.

And why is this?

 

[FenMan]

I don’t recall a rolling changeover ever being planned. The 319s were never capable of it.

My understanding, from reading "in the know" contributions on another thread, is that 769s can switch from diesel to electric on the move. GWR have a requirement for this on the North Downs Line at Aldershot South junction.

 

[D365]

My understanding, from reading "in the know" contributions on another thread, is that 769s can switch from diesel to electric on the move. GWR have a requirement for this on the North Downs Line at Aldershot South junction.

The 769/9s are fundamentally different to previous variants, so I wouldn’t know if or not this is true.