Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[pemma]

Which other short routes would be better to do? One that springs to mind is the section from Guide Bridge to Marple (Rose Hill) - that'd free up a half hourly DMU service - three units for the sake of maybe ten miles of electrification. If there are any other short lines to electrify then great but Windermere should be in the "easy, short" pile on the electrification "To Do" list.

I was thinking of slightly longer bits like Hazel Grove to Buxton and Atherton and subsequently Southport and Kirkby. In the 2 hour evening peak period from Manchester there's 16 carriages used on services to Buxton and another 16 for Southport, even before we count the Atherton line services which don't go as far as Southport. Windermere will only be 2 diagrams so there won't be many carriages freed up by it being electrified.

 

[Chester1]

Nope, the units are still in Loughborough AFAIK. If they'd made it to the Great Central you can guarantee that there would have been plenty of coverage

Wasn't the trial delayed from December to February?

Barrow isn't a priority, for me, but Windermere is a shortish single track branch line, low speed, no freight to worry about, no intermediate junctions - the kind of scheme that 1980s nostalgists would claim that BR managed to electrify over a weekend and be finished in time for Songs Of Praise - if we can't wire to Windermere then there really is no hope.

Which other short routes would be better to do? One that springs to mind is the section from Guide Bridge to Marple (Rose Hill) - that'd free up a half hourly DMU service - three units for the sake of maybe ten miles of electrification. If there are any other short lines to electrify then great but Windermere should be in the "easy, short" pile on the electrification "To Do" list.

There are no easy schemes at the moment, hopeless would be an accurate description! The political priorities are finishing GWR, Corby and doing transpennine. Thats enough to keep NR struggling until at least 2022.

 

[td97]

The Newcastle to Morpeth service runs entirely under the ECML, but uses diesels because the reversing sidings at Morpeth at not electrified. The hourly service is extended to the Metrocentre (4miles from Newcastle) during off-peak. So 4 miles + 100 meters has to be the easiest electrification scheme possible.

 

[158756]

The Newcastle to Morpeth service runs entirely under the ECML, but uses diesels because the reversing sidings at Morpeth at not electrified. The hourly service is extended to the Metrocentre (4miles from Newcastle) during off-peak. So 4 miles + 100 meters has to be the easiest electrification scheme possible.

You'd end up needing to train large numbers of staff, new maintenance facilities etc for the sake of 2 or 3 EMUs, so from the operational side the numbers won't look that good.

 

[MG11]

I was thinking of slightly longer bits like Hazel Grove to Buxton and Atherton and subsequently Southport and Kirkby. In the 2 hour evening peak period from Manchester there's 16 carriages used on services to Buxton and another 16 for Southport, even before we count the Atherton line services which don't go as far as Southport. Windermere will only be 2 diagrams so there won't be many carriages freed up by it being electrified.

With respect, is the market the same from the southern end to the Lakes as it is to Southport? It seems that Buxton/Southport may well seem feasible for commuters working in Manchester, but I find it hard to believe that Windermere residents would commute to Manchester/Hazel Grove regularly? I am only mentioning commuters because we are referring to Peak services here. I completely understand that there may be many lesiure travellers and those visiting family along this line.

 

[twpsaesneg]

Or for the DfT to accept that they need to agree to the wiring of the Lake route to Windermere. Paisley Canal style wiring scheme anyone?
Barrow is further and for the time being should be left in the hands of DMUs or bi modes.

Paisley Canal was barely compliant to the pre 1210 standards. We won't see that again unless there is a sea change in standards.
Windermere was looking to be a nice "easy" job as they went to be fair, but the political fallout from those vile structures ruining the landscape killed it more than any technical issues.

 

[IanXC]

Can I remind posters that this is a rolling stock thread for discussion of the 769 project, clearly there are some Infrastructure linkages however if you wish to discuss the merits and anotherwise of various electrification schemes please use an Infrastructure thread.

 

[twpsaesneg]

Unclear. Porterbrook are apparently not saying anything, while another poster on wnxx has suggested we won't see 769s in passenger service in 2018.

Don't suppose there's any further information since this last?

 

[mwmbwls]

Don't suppose there's any further information since this last?

Testing on the Great Central Railway was originally scheduled for December and then reset to February. So time for a bit of twitching at Quorn then?

 

[humbersidejim]

Is this how a 769 might sound:

I realise exhausts etc will make a significant difference, but that's the pure power unit.

 

[Overspeed110]

If these 769s ever turn a wheel they will never get up the hill to Buxton during leaffall, they can't even get going on the flat when it's a bit slippy due to all the power going to 4 axles.! I've driven hundreds of units up and down that line, leaffall used to be a nightmare before the Sanders were fitted and is still a challenge today when the leaves are coming down. Also they won't couple to any of Northerns current diesel fleet.

 

[50032]

If these 769s ever turn a wheel they will never get up the hill to Buxton during leaffall, they can't even get going on the flat when it's a bit slippy due to all the power going to 4 axles.! I've driven hundreds of units up and down that line, leaffall used to be a nightmare before the Sanders were fitted and is still a challenge today when the leaves are coming down. Also they won't couple to any of Northerns current diesel fleet.

Thankfully, there is no plan to run them to Buxton.

 

[MatthewRead]

Is this how a 769 might sound:

I realise exhausts etc will make a significant difference, but that's the pure power unit.

Pretty similar to any other DMU I was rather hoping it would sound a little different.

 

[Domh245]

Pretty similar to any other DMU I was rather hoping it would sound a little different.

It'll sound different in that it'll be always revved up if I remember correctly!

 

[a_c_skinner]

Thankfully, there is no plan to run them to Buxton.

Is there a plan to run them anywhere at present?!!

IIRC Porterbrook's initial modelling of performance was based on the Buxton line, I think it said so in one of my trainspotting mags, Rail probably. Only modelling of course.

 

[50032]

Is there a plan to run them anywhere at present?!!

IIRC Porterbrook's initial modelling of performance was based on the Buxton line, I think it said so in one of my trainspotting mags, Rail probably. Only modelling of course.

I think they only claimed that it would be able to cope with the adverse gradients on the Buxton line, that's all. No plans to send them up there, however.

It's fairly well documented that Northern intend using them for:
Alderley Edge - Wigan (via Westhoughton)
Airport - Windermere
Stalybridge - ? (Can't remember this one, Bolton, Wigan or Southport from memory).

 

[Plasmanoodle]

Is this how a 769 might sound:

I realise exhausts etc will make a significant difference, but that's the pure power unit.

I think that sounds similar to a Class 165/166 DMU.

 

[507021]

I think they only claimed that it would be able to cope with the adverse gradients on the Buxton line, that's all. No plans to send them up there, however.

It's fairly well documented that Northern intend using them for:
Alderley Edge - Wigan (via Westhoughton)
Airport - Windermere
Stalybridge - ? (Can't remember this one, Bolton, Wigan or Southport from memory).

The Class 769s will run from Stalybridge to Wigan North Western.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I think they only claimed that it would be able to cope with the adverse gradients on the Buxton line, that's all. No plans to send them up there, however.

Yes, and looked at speed and fuel too, again IIRC.

 

[mwmbwls]

The Class 769s will run from Stalybridge to Wigan North Western.

At work, we used to have a "memo" template with the first sentence, already, inserted: " Haven't you heard? It has all been changed."

Alderley Edge and Stalybridge to Southport is under discussion.
https://www.southportvisiter.co.uk/...ling-moore-southport-manchester-rail-14226482

Transport Secretary Chris Grayling has met with Southport business leaders concerned over previous plans to change vital train links to the town.

Mr Grayling was invited to a roundtable meeting, held at Fletcher’s Solicitors, by Southport MP Damien Moore.

Among those to attend were owners of shops, hotels and other companies who are fighting against plans which would see the 30-year-old service from Manchester Piccadilly to Southport re-routed to other stations.

The group also want to see better services and updated rolling stock.

Mr Grayling also visited the town last year and said he was looking into the possibility of re-opening the Burscough Curves - which links Southport, Ormskirk, Preston and Wigan.

Speaking after last week’s meeting, he said that the government was investing in ‘the biggest rail modernisation programme for over a century to improve services for passengers’. He also stated that all Pacer trains would be replaced by 2020.

He also thanked Mr Moore for arranging the meeting with business leaders. He added: “Damien cares passionately about his constituency and wants to see Southport thrive.

“This is one of Britain’s great seaside towns and I know how important the town sees its service from Manchester Piccadilly as a means to ensure that the town remains a popular destination for commuters, holidaymakers and visitors.

“We are working with Northern to see what can be done to make this happen.”

Conservative MP Mr Moore added: “Southport is a fantastic place enjoyed by thousands of visitors every year who come to enjoy the sights. We’ve also got events such as the world-renowned Southport Flower Show, the Comedy Festival, the Air Show, and we frequently hold the Golf Open.

“For all of these reasons and more, it’s vital that we have a modern updated train service fit for purpose, which will ensure that the town and everything it has to offer if enjoyed by generations to come.”

Southport is a key marginal seat so politics plays a large part - and Chris Grayling is a very "political" politician. ATN say servicing a three point concatenation from Alderley Edge - Southport - Stalybridge would require three more 769 units. The technology risk that the 769 concept will not work, at least with the current choice of emu surrogate, is currently seen as outweighing the political risk.

 

[507021]

At work, we used to have a "memo" template with the first sentence, already, inserted: " Haven't you heard? It has all been changed."



Southport is a key marginal seat so politics plays a large part - and Chris Grayling is a very "political" politician. ATN say servicing a three point concatenation from Alderley Edge - Southport - Stalybridge would require three more 769 units. The technology risk that the 769 concept will not work, at least with the current choice of emu surrogate, is currently seen as outweighing the political risk.

Interesting, thanks.

Daft question, but would this mean a further three 769s on top of the eleven on order?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is there a plan to run them anywhere at present?!!

IIRC Porterbrook's initial modelling of performance was based on the Buxton line, I think it said so in one of my trainspotting mags, Rail probably. Only modelling of course.

For the computer simulations of such things, Buxton would be an ideal "real-world" example for virtual testing due to the gradient profile, even if there are no plans to use them on that route. Vivarail used the Penistone line for their virtual simulations due to a combination of gradients, short runs between stations, and overall length meaning it was among the toughest routes that Vivarail assumed there'd be a market for.
Quite early on though, the 230s were pretty much ruled out of having any role with Northern.

 

[twpsaesneg]

So, on the 319 thread someone's posted a picture of 319424 returning from Brush to Allerton.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/britishrail1980sand1990s/40105504892/

They rightly point out the apparent lack of gubbins under the Driving Trailer... anyone have any clue what's going on?

Wikipedia lists 424 as one of the "chosen 8".

Or am I not squinting hard enough at the photo and we're about to see diesel action?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, that's definitely not a DMU.

Have they given up? I bet Vivarail will be happy if so!

 

[Domh245]

I half expect that Northern have asked Porterbrook if they can use an additional 319 (for driver training, presumably) and they'll release it back once the flex program is ready for that particular train. If all it was going to do otherwise was sit around in Loughborough waiting to have engines fitted (which they might not do until they've got the first units running reliably) then it might as well be put to use!

Alternatively with my cynical hat on, perhaps after measuring up the thickness of the unit's flooring in places, they're swapping it out for a different 319 that is more likely to take the weight of the modifications without issue.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You'd end up needing to train large numbers of staff, new maintenance facilities etc for the sake of 2 or 3 EMUs, so from the operational side the numbers won't look that good.

I get that argument to an extent as nobody really wants money to be wasted/spent inefficiently... but that didn't seem to be a problem for BR when electrics began running the Leeds to Doncaster services. They even gave us a microfleet of 3 brand-new units after a couple of years!

 

[CosherB]

Reports elsewhere online suggest that there are some significant technical challenges to sort out with the traction packages on the 769 ......

 

[pemma]

Reports elsewhere online suggest that there are some significant technical challenges to sort out with the traction packages on the 769 ......

Apparently Porterbrook and Brush declined Alstom's assistance because they wanted to do it alone but without Alstom's help they've got a bit stuck.

 

[pemma]

Vivarail used the Penistone line for their virtual simulations due to a combination of gradients, short runs between stations, and overall length meaning it was among the toughest routes that Vivarail assumed there'd be a market for.

And partly because they first presented the concept at a transport conference in Huddersfield.

 

[pemma]

I half expect that Northern have asked Porterbrook if they can use an additional 319 (for driver training, presumably) and they'll release it back once the flex program is ready for that particular train.

Possibly if they plan to run an Alderley Edge-Oxford Rd EMU service instead of an Alderley Edge-Wigan bi-mode service they'll need more EMUs in service.