Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Charlie Smythe]

The January 2019 edition of The Railway Magazine tells us "Seats would be removed, some window panels blanked out, and the floor is likely to be strengthened to accommodate roll cages containing parcels and similar. Sliding double-doors mean no modification is expected, but a ramp mechanism to get roll cages or pallets from the platform to the train would be needed."

The January 2019 edition of The Railway Magazine tells us "Seats would be removed, some window panels blanked out, and the floor is likely to be strengthened to accommodate roll cages containing parcels and similar. Sliding double-doors mean no modification is expected, but a ramp mechanism to get roll cages or pallets from the platform to the train would be needed."

Is it actually worth it though? Added weight will slow them down. Wouldn't we be better off building a Tri Mode or a Bi mode loco like the Class 88's and some converted MK3's?

 

[Emblematic]

Is it actually worth it though? Added weight will slow them down. Wouldn't we be better off building a Tri Mode or a Bi mode loco like the Class 88's and some converted MK3's?

Are you sure the Mk3 conversions you're referring to aren't from the 20m EMU/DMU version? I can't see any way that end-door stock is remotely suitable for parcels use without major reconstruction. On the other hand, converting mid-door stock to roller doors, plating over windows and strengthening floors is cheap and straightforward, and doesn't need a long time in service to pay back.

 

[gordonjahn]

Is it actually worth it though? Added weight will slow them down. Wouldn't we be better off building a Tri Mode or a Bi mode loco like the Class 88's and some converted MK3's?

Converting Mk3s doesn't seem to be going so well for GWR/Abellio SR/CrossCountry, plus the double doors means lack of modification to roll freight cages into the set (as per your quote). Also, these have cabs at each end and wouldn't need to be top'n'tailed.

It's an idea to re-use older stock in a bid to develop a direct-to-station logistics market that hasn't existed since Red Star parcels went defunct in 1999 and with stores like Doddle, and Amazon having their own lockers, it's probably a decent way of getting lots of parcels into big cities and over to recipients quicker than by road. I can see big stations ending up with a retail unit for parcels pick up and returns that arrive and depart by rail, possibly with bike/foot couriers that take packages to local businesses - seems like a decent enough idea.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Converting Mk3s doesn't seem to be going so well for GWR/Abellio SR/CrossCountry, plus the double doors means lack of modification to roll freight cages into the set (as per your quote). Also, these have cabs at each end and wouldn't need to be top'n'tailed.

It's an idea to re-use older stock in a bid to develop a direct-to-station logistics market that hasn't existed since Red Star parcels went defunct in 1999 and with stores like Doddle, and Amazon having their own lockers, it's probably a decent way of getting lots of parcels into big cities and over to recipients quicker than by road. I can see big stations ending up with a retail unit for parcels pick up and returns that arrive and depart by rail, possibly with bike/foot couriers that take packages to local businesses - seems like a decent enough idea.

If not wouldn't it be better to specially design coaches or a DMU or whatever for parcel carrying instead of converting the 769's? As properly deigned carriages would be able to carry far more.

 

[Emblematic]

It's interesting that the MML south from Bedford has past history of these conversions. The BedPan DMUs (Class 127) were regarded as clapped out and end of life in the early eighties, prompting the replacement and electrification with class 317 EMUs. Somewhat surprisingly, a number of the Class 127s had roller doors fitted, and soldiered on for another five years as parcels units. Seems the 319/769 conversion would just be a bit of history repeating itself.

 

[sprinterguy]

If not wouldn't it be better to specially design coaches or a DMU or whatever for parcel carrying instead of converting the 769's? As properly deigned carriages would be able to carry far more.

If the conversion is proposed to be akin to the layout of the class 325 units, which as noted above are based on the class 319 bodyshell, then they are very capacious and I doubt any alternative proposal would offer any more capacity within the same train length.

 

[edwin_m]

If not wouldn't it be better to specially design coaches or a DMU or whatever for parcel carrying instead of converting the 769's? As properly deigned carriages would be able to carry far more.

If the conversion is proposed to be akin to the layout of the class 325 units, which as noted above are based on the class 319 bodyshell, then they are very capacious and I doubt any alternative proposal would offer any more capacity within the same train length.

I agree. Once all the seats and partitions are taken out there it is basically a big empty space. There would be a little less space than a 325 due to retaining the sliding doors and their pockets, and a little less space efficiency than a Mk3 rake because there would be relatively more space taken up by gangways in a train of 20m vehicles.

But neither of these is really significant and certainly not enough to justify spending a lot of money designing and building a new unit which would only be slightly better than what is available secondhand. A relatively cheap conversion of some existing units is a good way of seeing if there is a market for this concept, which could then be expanded using new or more existing units if successful. In any case, the only new unit currently available as a bi-mode is the 70x series, whose end-door layout is unsuitable for parcels and whose price probably is too.

 

[Geoff DC]

The airlines do it well - they can change a 747 passenger into a 747 freight overnight (or quicker) by taking out/putting back the seats

Substitute 747 for almost any other airliner

 

[Mogster]

The airlines do it well - they can change a 747 passenger into a 747 freight overnight (or quicker) by taking out/putting back the seats

Substitute 747 for almost any other airliner

Maybe in the 1950s but not so much now.

Many aging airliners like 747 400s have been converted for freight but it takes months. The whole interior needs ripping out and the floor strengthened to take extra weight. You don’t want any extra bulk in your plane if you don’t absolutely need it. Then the windows are plugged and a huge door cut in the side to take air cargo containers. Ball rollers are fitted to the floor so the containers can be slid around. The process takes about 4 months.

There are special quick change airliners wth seats on pallets, the seats can be moved out like cargo containers but they are unusual.

 

[modernrail]

I work as a scientist within the NHS, I operate robotic analysers mostly, we operate to pharmaceutical production standards.

My lab has many different pieces of complex equipment and tasks, at the last count more than 15. As with the railway we have to keep records of training and competency. Keeping staff current on so many different machines is very difficult, senior management want us to be able to operate every machine to cover for holidays, sickness etc..., it’s impossible to stay current on everything. I find it hard to see how Northern can manage all these different stock types with success...

The other puzzling thing is why the TOC’s order stuff independently, surely there are economies of scale that should be encouraged. Maybe production capacity is a problem though, rather than waiting 3 years it’s better to order something different.



My concern with the 319s is that being 30 years old already they are far from ideal. All this effort, and yes, cost, for remodelling and implementing units that are already quite old. If they were 15 years old, then this would make much more sense. It’s 2019 now, surely 30 year old units aren’t a long term solution.

I think that your last point is valid in that the network operated by Northern is pretty inefficient and it may be a major factor in the inordinate high subsidy received for those services. Probably the worst aspect is the insistence, probably from representatives of every settlement with a station, that there are regular trains to everywhere. At most of these stations, there is rarely sufficient demand to justify more than a 2-3 car trains once or twice an hour so the whole infrastructure has been cut back to serve such a minimal service, an rolling stock comprises mainly sprinters or pacers. When there is an upturn in demand, the low-level service is easily swamped, but because of the infrastructure-limited paths, there's little than can be done about it.
The difference in the south-east is that most routes are radial on London, and the major issue is just one of sheer volume, comrise by the need to serve local stations as well as major railheads. This has been developed over decades by ensuring that the infrastructure can cope with optimum length trains, (160 - 240 metres long), and running optimised headway with uniform or compatible performance trains. That is the main reason for the class 700s being deployed across all non inter city services on the MML, not some special 'privilege' for Londoners. The total MML timetable just wouldn't work without such a measure.
For serious long-term improvements in the north, the first step must be to establish a network of key corridors where passengers can be offered fast medium distance hops preceded/followed by easy changes to local trains. I maintain that the trains used for either of those service types only need to be suited to the traffic they will be used on, there is no specific requirement for trains to be 'new'.

I am not sure how much I agree with this. Even formally quiet lines such as the Penistone line are pretty full a lot of the time now. I cannot think of a train I have caught in Northern land whether peak or off-peak for a long time now that I would describe as quiet. The roads are so jammed up that there is plenty more to go at as well. In fairly stark contrast many of the lines in the South cart around an awful lot of fresh air off-peak with often whole carriages with just a few people in them. Most of the 700's are showing a lot of green on the availability screens a lot of the time. This is not a north v south thing, it is a product of a railway in the South that is designed to move vast numbers of people into one place during the peak. I am a beneficiary. During the off-peak I can skip, hop and jump down the train on the Sutton loop.

One thing I completely agree on is the opportunity to rationalise services into a more coherent pattern in the north. The north has many big cities, medium size cities and large towns without one big magnet slap bang in the middle and so will always be more of a distributed network than a radial one. That makes the importance of aligned and integrated transport even greater but the very opposite is true. There is simply no political will to make it happen. I always stick to using trains when I back up in that superb part of the world for pleasure or business but it increasingly becoming difficult as trains are rammed, delayed, cancelled, not happening due to strikes or look and smell pretty bloody awful.

 

[Roose]

and linked off the page, dated 23/10 https://www.railmagazine.com/news/n...ern-to-introduce-converted-bi-modes-next-year

Linked off many pages at the moment, AndrewE, as one of the newest articles.

 

[theblackwatch]

The airlines do it well - they can change a 747 passenger into a 747 freight overnight (or quicker) by taking out/putting back the seats

Substitute 747 for almost any other airliner

BR (remember them?) managed it too. Remember the Class 101/105/120 DPU units? See https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/class-101/parcels for a few photos.

 

[AndrewE]

Linked off many pages at the moment, AndrewE, as one of the newest articles.

I imagined that they might have published rather more in the last 10 weeks. I coudn't really believe that no-one else here had picked up on it in all that time.

 

[Meerkat]

I struggle to see the market for parcels trains. Deliveries are so time constrained now that what serious parcels company is going to risk using the railways? Roads and trucks make a highly adaptable and multiply redundant system.
If a parcels unit sits down halfway what do they do?
If there is a line block for a few hours can they still access their loading point before the next peak?

 

[trash80]

Maybe in the 1950s but not so much now.

Many aging airliners like 747 400s have been converted for freight but it takes months. The whole interior needs ripping out and the floor strengthened to take extra weight. You don’t want any extra bulk in your plane if you don’t absolutely need it. Then the windows are plugged and a huge door cut in the side to take air cargo containers. Ball rollers are fitted to the floor so the containers can be slid around. The process takes about 4 months.

There are special quick change airliners wth seats on pallets, the seats can be moved out like cargo containers but they are unusual.

Many airliners had (still have?) a "combi" variant which could be used like this.

 

[AndyW33]

In the UK context Jet2 had until recently (may still do) a small fleet of 737-300QC (for Quick Change) aircraft that were used with seats in the daytime and without on mail flights at night.
Combi aircraft are sometimes capable of quick change between passenger and freight, but the term more usually refers to the carriage of cargo on a permanently partitioned-off area of the main deck as well as in the holds. They were mainly used on flights with some passenger demand but substantial freight flows. Particularly popular in areas with no roads or poor roads, such as the Canadian North. Modern safety consciousness has made it very hard to get new combis through certification as there are potential problems with cargo shifting due to turbulence and forcing its way through the partition into the passenger compartment, crushing the occupants.

 

[edwin_m]

I struggle to see the market for parcels trains. Deliveries are so time constrained now that what serious parcels company is going to risk using the railways? Roads and trucks make a highly adaptable and multiply redundant system.
If a parcels unit sits down halfway what do they do?
If there is a line block for a few hours can they still access their loading point before the next peak?

Then again, a relatively minor accident on a motorway at a busy time (that's most of the day) will very quickly jam not only the approaches on the motorway but all the diversionary roads. This has delayed me by several hours two or three times in the last five years or so when driving, despite most of my travelling being by train (and not encountering a similar delay). The balance probably remains with the road for overnight transits, when there is less congestion and the railway often closes for engineering access, but it could be shifting towards rail for daytime movements.

 

[Alfie1014]

The 319s were originally used to move parcels traffic, not palletised but bagged, there were limited workings Luton, St Pancras, Redhill, Tonbridge? The 319s also carried the Royal Mail coat of arms when new.

 

[MatthewRead]

The 319s were originally used to move parcels traffic, not palletised but bagged, there were limited workings Luton, St Pancras, Redhill, Tonbridge? The 319s also carried the Royal Mail coat of arms when new.

When was that may I ask?

 

[Alfie1014]

When was that may I ask?

Early 90s certainly with the 319/0s as was possibly with the 319/1s. See this photo (not mine) where the Royal Mail markings are by the first doorway. https://canonburyjct.smugmug.com/EMU-pre-digital/i-TLrdkrL/A

 

[big all]

The 319s were originally used to move parcels traffic, not palletised but bagged, there were limited workings Luton, St Pancras, Redhill, Tonbridge? The 319s also carried the Royal Mail coat of arms when new.

as a driver at redhill until 1994 driving 319 on southern but not not touching themslink other than traveling pass
the perhaps 20% at one end between the drivers cab and sliding door was indeed sectioned off for mail use now this would be fully in normal use as passenger units never in peak and suspect only on the brighton main line but off course could be used on other lines and other times but within my time up to late 1994 there where never normal 319 mail trains that i ever saw they may off course may have existed althought i do remember 455 as perhaps an extension to a london bridge to croydon loaded as a mail train in the mail dock at redhill

 

[Meerkat]

Then again, a relatively minor accident on a motorway at a busy time (that's most of the day) will very quickly jam not only the approaches on the motorway but all the diversionary roads

A decent logistics company will be all over the traffic news, diverting their lorries on a live basis (and most of the miles are off peak/overnight)
And of course if the lorry breaks down it is one single lorry load, not a full trainload, and far easy to transfer to a new lorry.

It’s unfortunate but I just don’t see how Rail can compete for fast parcels or just in time logistics (unless Brexit means cross channel can flourish)

 

[js1000]

A decent logistics company will be all over the traffic news, diverting their lorries on a live basis (and most of the miles are off peak/overnight)
And of course if the lorry breaks down it is one single lorry load, not a full trainload, and far easy to transfer to a new lorry.

It’s unfortunate but I just don’t see how Rail can compete for fast parcels or just in time logistics (unless Brexit means cross channel can flourish)

It would be quicker between Manchester and Sheffield as no motorway links both. The problem as I see it is that many of the sidings and goods yards facilities that make rail logistics possible have been demolished since the 1960s so how such mail trains would interface with existing facilities is another question. Manchester Mayfield is a prime example.

 

[Meerkat]

Would it really be quicker over that distance?
The lorries can go out as they are loaded, rather than wait for a whole train to be loaded and then the timetabled path, and the workload is lumpy at the other end too.
I only see rail being competitive on long distance trunk routes between existing distribution centres, probably out of town.
The only way inner city becomes viable is if legislation forces it to happen.

 

[Class 170101]

Does that not depend on driver availability? I think I read recently there was a shortage of lorry drivers and with the population getting older this wasn't likely to get any better.

I stand to be corrected on the figure but I thought I read it could be around 40,000 lorry drivers needed in the UK.

 

[Emblematic]

Does that not depend on driver availability? I think I read recently there was a shortage of lorry drivers and with the population getting older this wasn't likely to get any better.

I stand to be corrected on the figure but I thought I read it could be around 40,000 lorry drivers needed in the UK.

It's been an increasing issue for a while now, not just in the UK but across the EU. Hence the EU-wide reduction in the minimum age for LGV licences from 21 to 18 a few years back. However, that doesn't seem to have made the career any more attractive to younger entrants.

 

[a_c_skinner]

It is like being a pilot, the training is costly and you pay for it yourself. The real solution is for the industry to train, but that isn't going to happen. It isn't the world's best job either.

 

[jimm]

Could we perhaps stick to Class 769s here, rather than logistics and the availability, or otherwise, of lorry drivers?

 

[Grannyjoans]

If we really are going to be on target for cutting carbon emissions we really should be moving freight by rail where possible, and hauled by an electric locomotive.

 

[modernrail]

Could the flex (or a 321 varient) be a good option for Southern on the Marshlink from Ashford to Eastbourne? I am thinking...
- I understand that about half of the line is electrified, I think with 3rd rail. That makes it an excellent candidate.
- Marshlink services are often 2 carriages and overcrowded but the platforms can take 4 carriages.
- There is not a hope in hell this line will be electrified to take HS1 servicee whatever chatter there may be about doing that. There are about a million priorities in the north above this. This is therefore the best upgrade passengers on that line could hope for with a de facto doubling of capacity on perfectly comfortable trains for that particular run.
- The released DMUs could be put to very good work in the north until the wire knitting community gets its act together.

This leads to a further thought. Can Southern not then put 319s unmodified on Coastway Services? Southern could then have a uniform product across the South coast and suitablely organised depot facilities. If not East Coastway (which already has decent stock) then certainly West Coastway as the 319s are newer and have an extra carriage than the current stock on that line.