Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by aformeruser, 2 Dec 2016.

  1. physics34

    physics34 Established Member

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    They would need SDO as a few stations down there can only fit 1 carriage!
     
  2. modernrail

    modernrail Member

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    Really! Is that what happens when they run 4 carriages on Marshlink in summer?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 21 Jan 2019
  3. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    It would have to be a 319-based unit. 321s do not have third-rail gear and DC buses - there's no inherent practicality there other than using a straight DMU. Also yes, I think SDO is needed down there which neither 319s or 321s have in their current guise that I recall. 319s replacing 313s could work but as I understand it, they need to be 3-car units. Now we have the opposite problem as well - 321s can be converted down to 3-cars easily, but 319s have too much auxiliary gear to relocate. 321s not having DC gear, the best bet for Coastway I think is to bolster the EMU fleet further and put the 3-car 377s back down there.
     
    Last edited: 9 Jan 2019
  4. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    319s were run under DOO on Thameslink.
     
  5. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    Whoops, I meant SDO, apologies - will edit.
     
  6. Fincra5

    Fincra5 Established Member

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    319s don't need to be shortened to 3 cars for use on SN. 313's no longer visit the East Coast between Eastbourne and Hastings , where the two 3 car stations (Pevensey Bay and Normans Bay). 769s would be good for the Marshlink but would need SDO - as mentioned some stations are 1-coach. But 313s will be here for a while...
     
  7. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    Fair enough, I don't know the area well enough to know which stations were affected (though I suppose I could have looked it up in the sectional appendix).
     
  8. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

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    Depending on how busy the stations are I've seen 8 (maybe 12) coach trains serve a station which is normally 2 or 3 coache trains only without the use of SDO, by the guard just opening a local door. It does require a longer stop (say +1 minute) so that people have time to walk along the platform. However if it was always the first door on the second coach there could be a sign or platform markings to highlight the general area that People needed to wait in.

    For on train passengers there would be announcements and information on the PIS's ("xxxx is the next station stop, passengers wishing to leave here need to do so by the door the guard opens in the second coach")
     
  9. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    It gets a bit more complicated when accessibilty is taken into account. Not all passengers are able to walk through the train to use the correct door. At least where the station has step-free access to the platforms, it's probably necessary to use the door nearest the wheelchair area. Using this door in both directions makes it possible to put fixed signs in the rest of the train directing passengers there if alighting at the stations in question.
     
  10. a_c_skinner

    a_c_skinner Member

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    Does anyone know what is happening with the early units? Are any on the big railway? Are they still pottering up and down the GC line? I'm beginning to swing to the "it won't work" camp, if only because nothing seems to be progressing.
     
  11. notlob.divad

    notlob.divad Established Member

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    I believe at least one has been dragged to Allerton. Presumably for maintenance training.
     
  12. big all

    big all Member

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    because there seems to be definate units earmarked for specific areas so a pressing need they will tend to spend more resources to "make it work" rather than the 230 choice where it seems will only work if the figures add up and make financial and commercial sense
     
    Last edited: 10 Jan 2019
  13. Class455

    Class455 Member

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    Wonder if Northern will use their 769's down to Huddersfield at all?
     
  14. jayiscupid

    jayiscupid Member

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    There was a comment in Today's Railways last month (page 7) which said Porterbrook are looking into the potential of a Flex 377 for Marshlink and Uckfield freeing up more 170s.
     
  15. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    What advantage would a 377 have over a 319 when it comes to accommodating a pair of diesel generator sets?
     
  16. modernrail

    modernrail Member

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    Might it be more about 319s not being able to get through Oxted tunnel (something I have read on here) and having a common fleet type (something Northern are not allowed).
     
  17. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    Apart from the fact that Northern already have class 319s and no Electrostars.
     
  18. modernrail

    modernrail Member

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    Not sure what point is being made? They also have class 150, 153, 155, 156, 142, 144, 158, 333, 321, 322, 323 and will shortly add 195 and 331. 14 in total although it will roll back to 12 in a few years when pacers go.

    In contrast Southern has 4 classes.
     
  19. sd0733

    sd0733 Established Member

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    153, 321, 322, 323 are all also scheduled to drop out the fleet.
     
  20. jonesy3001

    jonesy3001 Established Member

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    According to posts on the facebook groups, the 323s are staying with the WMT ones joining and the 319s leaving.
     
  21. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    But that is Facebook. There has not been any official comment.
     
  22. AndrewE

    AndrewE Established Member

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    What a clever plan (not!) I really hope that our best commuter trains currently are not moving on. The bimode version is presumable staying until something can be procured to replace them (I doubt that Barrow and Windermere will see any wires in my lifetime) but if the 319s go we shall lose the benefits of the commonalities between 319s and 769s.
    Maybe there will be sister fleets of electrics and bimodes procured one day, but I wouldn't expect it before the 769s collapse, by when it will be too late to look for a bi-mode 331.
     
  23. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    So out of your list, the 150s, 153s, 156s, 142s, 158s, and when they come, 195s are all diesel so have nothing to do with commonality with EMUs. That leaves the 321/322 (basically the same vehicles) the 323s and the 333s. GTR, (Southern is just a brand) has 313s, 355s, 377s (two non-compatible types), 387s and 700s. I've excluded 365s because they don't run on 3rd rail. GTR also has DMU types: 159s and 171s (which are required for less than 10% of their total traffic.
    I don't see that much difference. However, considering the rag-bag bunch of routes that Northern runs, the trains available in most cases fitted the needs of the services scheduled on them.

    All this "something Northern are not allowed" wailing conveniently ignores that just over twenty years ago, the majority of the services south of the Thames were run by trains more than 40 years old, some of them comprising hardware that was pre-war, whilst the Northern area had modern Sprinters and Super-Sprinters from the '80s. The 323s and 333s were new EMUs and the 308s were a stop-gap until the 321/322s were available ISTR.
     
    Last edited: 11 Jan 2019
  24. Fincra5

    Fincra5 Established Member

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    Would be difficult. Looking at the 769s don't they have a GenSet under each DTSO? 377's have 3 motor cars (DMOS A/B and MOSL) Leaving only the PTOSL to mount a GenSet... Unless you removed the Traction Equipment from a MOSL but then the 377Flex would be horrendously slow and sluggish. Its bad enough moving a 377 with one motor coach out, let alone with the weight on GenSets.
     
  25. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    That was why I asked the question. A 4-car 319 has a power per weight figure of 9.46 hp per tonne whereas a 4-car 377 has a figure of 9.21 hp per tonne. Although the 377s have 6 motored axles, the PTSOL is unmotored so the weight of the transformer (or concrete weight) and compressor doesn't help with adhesion. With 319s, the full 50 tonne weight of the MSO is available.
     
  26. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    Nope: GTR only have 171s.

    You really need to go and look at the history of the Southern units. 20 years ago (1999), the slam door fleet was not as old as you might think: the oldest VEPs were built in 1967 (32 years old) and the oldest CIG was 1964 build (35 years old). Only the 205/207 DEMU fleet (1958 on) and the CEPs (1956 on) met the criteria, and the CEPs had a rebuild in the 1980s that arguably made them superior to the CIGs. Other than that, services were in the hands of the 1980s and 90s built 159s, 442s, 455s, 456s and the Networkers. Clearly your statement does not stand up to scrutiny.
     
  27. Jonny

    Jonny Established Member

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    Some jiggery-pokery to move the PTOSL motors onto one or both of the DMOS coaches would be a win-win in that case.
     
  28. aleggatta

    aleggatta Member

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    it's PTOSL not PMOSL, no motors to move!
     
  29. Charlie Smythe

    Charlie Smythe On Moderation

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    Although on a 769 the weight of the engines are on the driving trailer so they do add to adhesion.
     
  30. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    I don't think so, there aren't any motors in the driving cars where the gensets will be mounted.
     

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