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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

a_c_skinner

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If they are out of gauge how were they delivered by rail? I've lost track (sorry) of the time line but I still don't see this adding up. They must (should?) have been gauged for rail delivery (they did go by rail, didn't they?), we are told this is an easy fix yet months and months go by. OTOH orders and deliverles go on. TfW is drafting in 37s and Mk2 stock because they are acutely short of units.
 
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Cardiff123

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If they are out of gauge how were they delivered by rail? I've lost track (sorry) of the time line but I still don't see this adding up. They must (should?) have been gauged for rail delivery (they did go by rail, didn't they?), we are told this is an easy fix yet months and months go by. OTOH orders and deliverles go on. TfW is drafting in 37s and Mk2 stock because they are acutely short of units.
769002 was dragged to Canton by rail on 14th March, and iirc the gauging issue was discovered when the unit got to Canton. It is hard to keep up now, I agree.
 

a_c_skinner

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So, taking an optimistic view they were ready to go main line until this minor hitch was found. I do hope that is a good summary and would make sense and add up.
 

big all

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a problem with an exhaust pipe on an external corner suggests it will only come to light on a tight curve
so if the delivery route or service route doesn't have a tight curve and something like a platform edge or similar to catch on it could be in service for many years an not have a problem
 
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Sleeperwaking

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If they are out of gauge how were they delivered by rail? I've lost track (sorry) of the time line but I still don't see this adding up. They must (should?) have been gauged for rail delivery (they did go by rail, didn't they?), we are told this is an easy fix yet months and months go by. OTOH orders and deliverles go on. TfW is drafting in 37s and Mk2 stock because they are acutely short of units.
To add to big all's comment, the gauging team can accept some sub-standard clearances in the short term to issue a temporary gauge certificate (on the basis that track will not move substantially in the next 12 months) but cannot accept them for a permanent "30 year" gauging certificate, which needs to take into account maximum tolerances. Also, the delivery gauging cert may not have considered passenger footsteps fitted / crush loading etc. which can increase the swept envelope.
 

adsteamfan

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I am eagerly awaiting the introduction of the 769s on the Chat Moss route. Whilst walking along the path adjacent to the embankment I watched / listened to an almost empty 319 leaving N-le-W towards LIV on Friday night (just after 9pm) in very light drizzle. The driver was very light on the throttle (nowhere near the usual whine from the motors) but even so, the anti-wheelslip was working overtime and the unit was crossing Park Road bridge before the motors gained volume to (presumably) show that it had notched up and we're not in leaf fall season. Add in the engine weight and a reasonable passenger load in similar conditions and I expect that it will make for interesting watching.
 

Mathew S

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I am eagerly awaiting the introduction of the 769s on the Chat Moss route. Whilst walking along the path adjacent to the embankment I watched / listened to an almost empty 319 leaving N-le-W towards LIV on Friday night (just after 9pm) in very light drizzle. The driver was very light on the throttle (nowhere near the usual whine from the motors) but even so, the anti-wheelslip was working overtime and the unit was crossing Park Road bridge before the motors gained volume to (presumably) show that it had notched up and we're not in leaf fall season. Add in the engine weight and a reasonable passenger load in similar conditions and I expect that it will make for interesting watching.
You're going to have a long wait then, since there's no plans to run them over Chat Moss. Even if they do run that way for any reason, they'll still be on AC so no difference from now (which is to say from 319s).
 

adsteamfan

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You're going to have a long wait then, since there's no plans to run them over Chat Moss. Even if they do run that way for any reason, they'll still be on AC so no difference from now (which is to say from 319s).
As 142s have substituted for 319s it's a possibility. In hindsight, I shouldn't have been location specific. My point was that if an almost empty 319 struggles to get away then a 769 whether on AC or gen-set will definitely struggle as there are quite a few tons difference (2x8 tons has been quoted previously) between a 319 and a 769.
 

AM9

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As 142s have substituted for 319s it's a possibility. In hindsight, I shouldn't have been location specific. My point was that if an almost empty 319 struggles to get away then a 769 whether on AC or gen-set will definitely struggle as there are quite a few tons difference (2x8 tons has been quoted previously) between a 319 and a 769.
2x8 tonnes is a very small part of the 143 tonnes total class weight when empty with 35% of that weight available for adhesion. Load it with seated passengers, that another 24 tonnes. If it is crush loaded, it would weigh upwards of 200 tonnes and the adhesive weight would still be over 29%. Of course some drivers have a better touch than others at reducing wheelspin, but the "quite a few tons difference isn't really much in the big scheme of things.
 

driver_m

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Might be more common than you think on the Chat Moss on Diesel. (Presuming they ever run). If the set has an AC fault, (ie chipped Carbon on pan, VCB fault (critical to pan operation)) can you see Northern grounding it, or just running it on Diesel for that days diagram? Fuel range on an all-dayer might mean it’s kept close to Home anyway, so likely to be kept around Allerton or Springs Branch or wherever they’ll be kept st predominantly.
 
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2x8 tonnes is a very small part of the 143 tonnes total class weight when empty with 35% of that weight available for adhesion. Load it with seated passengers, that another 24 tonnes. If it is crush loaded, it would weigh upwards of 200 tonnes and the adhesive weight would still be over 29%. Of course some drivers have a better touch than others at reducing wheelspin, but the "quite a few tons difference isn't really much in the big scheme of things.

It may only be an extra 15 tonnes but it still won't help. I would like to see a 769 crush loaded up the 1:37 between Exeter St Davids and Exeter Central on a damp day. My bet would be it wouldn't be especially with a 15mph speed limit at the bottom.
 

py_megapixel

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Sorry if this is a point which has already been made, but it seems that Alderley Edge to Wigan, as well as some services on the Styal line, would be quite well suited to bi-modes, the reason being that because of some joining together of services that Northern had to do to run services from further north than Manchester through to the airport, they spend a lot of their distance on electrified lines. Possibly even Manchester to Buxton, although that seems less likely.

Additionally, can bi-modes provide redundancy in the event of electrical failure, to keep a service running? Or would anything strand them on an electrified line where the OLE has failed (assuming it is still safe to run diesel services)?
 

Sleeperwaking

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Additionally, can bi-modes provide redundancy in the event of electrical failure, to keep a service running? Or would anything strand them on an electrified line where the OLE has failed (assuming it is still safe to run diesel services)?
Yes, provided that the unit was not itself damaged by the OLE failure and (as you say) that the OLE failed in such a way as to allow trains to pass safely, it should allow continuation of service. The only issue I think would be how much fuel was available, although you'd hope that the re-fuelling policy would ensure there was enough at the start of the day to run the whole diagram on diesel if required.
 

AM9

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It may only be an extra 15 tonnes but it still won't help. I would like to see a 769 crush loaded up the 1:37 between Exeter St Davids and Exeter Central on a damp day. My bet would be it wouldn't be especially with a 15mph speed limit at the bottom.
Well the 319s regularly ran up the 1:27 to Blackfriars from a standing start at City Thameslink. About three quarters of the gradient is exposed to the elements. Similarly there's the 1:29 (ISTR) from St Pancras up to Dock Junction, with about one third exposed. Passenger loading at those points was at a maximum on every evening weekday peak.
With slightly less adhesion, but, less power from the gensets, the ascents on an equivalent gradient elsewhere would be slower, but the torque at the wheels would be similar as it is dependent on the motors. That torque would however be smoother as a result of the lower power so wheelslip might be less likely in the hands of a driver experienced with them. I haven't heard of any likely deployment of 769s in Exeter though.
 
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scrapy

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Yes, provided that the unit was not itself damaged by the OLE failure and (as you say) that the OLE failed in such a way as to allow trains to pass safely, it should allow continuation of service. The only issue I think would be how much fuel was available, although you'd hope that the re-fuelling policy would ensure there was enough at the start of the day to run the whole diagram on diesel if required.
Yes the biggest thing that stops diesels / bimodes running on electrified lines during OHLE failure is there are often other 'failed' electric trains en route blocking the line. But so long as the line is clear they are fine.
 

Bletchleyite

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Which bit of Alderley Edge to Wigan (North Western, I assume, so via Bolton) isn't electrified? Is it just the short section via Westhoughton? Would seem a sensible bit of fill-in electrification.
 

js1000

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Sorry if this is a point which has already been made, but it seems that Alderley Edge to Wigan, as well as some services on the Styal line, would be quite well suited to bi-modes, the reason being that because of some joining together of services that Northern had to do to run services from further north than Manchester through to the airport, they spend a lot of their distance on electrified lines.
The Wigan to Alderley Edge service is desperate for decent rolling stock after a year of Pacers, particularly after those in electrified track south of Manchester feel as if they've gone back decades with that service. I'm not so sure about the Styal Line services. Arriva are committed to operating all services to/from Manchester Airport with either 195s or 331s going forward. Not to mention the Franchise Agreement is quite particular in the requirements of rolling stock for Northern Connect services to/and Manchester Airport - sufficient luggage space, swift acceleration etc. The 319s are slow enough so it will be interesting seeing how the 769 compares with the extra weight to be carried.
 

driver_m

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Which bit of Alderley Edge to Wigan (North Western, I assume, so via Bolton) isn't electrified? Is it just the short section via Westhoughton? Would seem a sensible bit of fill-in electrification.

Yep. Should be getting going right now after finishing Chorley. Unfortunately. Chris Grayling has worked his ‘magic’. See the dedicated thread for this.
 

Mathew S

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Which bit of Alderley Edge to Wigan (North Western, I assume, so via Bolton) isn't electrified? Is it just the short section via Westhoughton? Would seem a sensible bit of fill-in electrification.
Yep. And yep. Supposed to be happening at some point, but I'll believe it when I see it.
 

a_c_skinner

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Arriva are committed to operating all services to/from Manchester Airport with either 195s or 331s going forward.

Passengers want, above all, capacity. New trains are a bonus for travellers, for whom refurbished with enough capacity comes ahead of new. For politicians new trains come well ahead of enough trains because new shiny trains mean votes, a few extra trains are a "so what" thing. Back on topic replies here and similar threads give the impression that promises of new trains or "Northern Connect" specifications are standing between passengers and enough seats. With bimodes air pollution, speed and acceleration on main lines, noise and so on come in to play too. If the good bimode set turns out to be 769s that is excellent. Northern has to my way of thinking chosen its new trains badly. A large proportion of services in Manchester and Liverpool areas and some in the Leeds and Newcastle areas have significant mileages on electrified lines in areas where air quality (and capacity and acceleration) are important. If 769 doesn't work properly then the number needed is zero, if it works well they've not ordered enough. If the economics of 769 work compared with new bimodes or not I don't know, but more bimodes seem the way to go.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Which bit of Alderley Edge to Wigan (North Western, I assume, so via Bolton) isn't electrified? Is it just the short section via Westhoughton? Would seem a sensible bit of fill-in electrification.

Only Salford Crescent via Bolton to Lostock Jn is wired, nothing via Atherton or Westhoughton.
The approach to Wigan NW is also unwired except the local link from the WCML.
I'm not even sure switching modes at Lostock is on either (might have to be while stationary), meaning the switch would have to be in Bolton station.
 

big all

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Only Salford Crescent via Bolton to Lostock Jn is wired, nothing via Atherton or Westhoughton.
The approach to Wigan NW is also unwired except the local link from the WCML.
I'm not even sure switching modes at Lostock is on either (might have to be while stationary), meaning the switch would have to be in Bolton station.
its suggested at present only stationery change over will take place
 

Greybeard33

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Which bit of Alderley Edge to Wigan (North Western, I assume, so via Bolton) isn't electrified? Is it just the short section via Westhoughton? Would seem a sensible bit of fill-in electrification.
Arriva's original rolling stock plan for Northern assumed that Lostock Jn - Wigan NW, and Victoria - Stalybridge, would be wired by December 2017, enabling Wigan NW - Stalybridge/Alderley Edge services to be worked by 319s. If Network Rail had delivered that as promised, the 769 (and this thread) would probably not exist.

Presumably DfT calculated that subsidising the Flex development programme would be the lowest cost way of compensating Northern for the failure to deliver the promised electrification infrastructure on these lines.
 

Greybeard33

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The Wigan to Alderley Edge service is desperate for decent rolling stock after a year of Pacers, particularly after those in electrified track south of Manchester feel as if they've gone back decades with that service. I'm not so sure about the Styal Line services. Arriva are committed to operating all services to/from Manchester Airport with either 195s or 331s going forward. Not to mention the Franchise Agreement is quite particular in the requirements of rolling stock for Northern Connect services to/and Manchester Airport - sufficient luggage space, swift acceleration etc. The 319s are slow enough so it will be interesting seeing how the 769 compares with the extra weight to be carried.
Is Arriva really committed to operate the Liverpool - Crewe via Airport stopper with 331s? It is not a Northern Connect route and I thought that 319s were the long term plan. And AFAIK there are no plans to operate 769s to the Airport (unless thrown up by the Northern random unit generator).
 

Mathew S

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Only Salford Crescent via Bolton to Lostock Jn is wired, nothing via Atherton or Westhoughton.
The approach to Wigan NW is also unwired except the local link from the WCML.
I'm not even sure switching modes at Lostock is on either (might have to be while stationary), meaning the switch would have to be in Bolton station.
No. The whole route of these services from Bolton to Alderley Edge is under the wires. It's important to remember the 'south of Manchester' part as well. It will only be Bolton to Wigan that has to be run on diesel.
 

AMD

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No. The whole route of these services from Bolton to Alderley Edge is under the wires. It's important to remember the 'south of Manchester' part as well. It will only be Bolton to Wigan that has to be run on diesel.
The diagrams however are written to interwork with Wigan - Stalybridge ie a train will do Wigan to Alderley to Wigan to Staly to Wigan.... and repeat - Victoria to Staly isn't wired either.
 

Chester1

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Yep. Should be getting going right now after finishing Chorley. Unfortunately. Chris Grayling has worked his ‘magic’. See the dedicated thread for this.

Yep. And yep. Supposed to be happening at some point, but I'll believe it when I see it.

I am a bit more hopeful than you. Some enabling work has been done, its a relatively short stretch and it does not need a major upgrade like Manchester-Preston. The DfT should give TfGM the money to do it. They have proved competent with Metrolink extensions.
 

supervc-10

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TfGM should totally be given more control and the ability to run the whole of the transport system like TFL do. Transport around Manchester is a mess. We need an Oyster style system across busses, trams, and trains, not separate systems for each.
 

Cardiff123

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TfGM should totally be given more control and the ability to run the whole of the transport system like TFL do. Transport around Manchester is a mess. We need an Oyster style system across busses, trams, and trains, not separate systems for each.
Welcome to the world of post-Thatcher-era privatisation, deregulation, competition and fragmentation. Works a treat doesn't it.
 

supervc-10

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Oh I know. I have no problems with private companies having contracts to operate things (think TfL buses) but the ticketing, timetables etc need to be done with the public interest at the centre of it all. Not private profits. It's public transport, after all!
 

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