Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Llama]

One engine per driving car.

 

[LDECRexile]

I've been asked off-site whether the 769s I saw at Southport last week were quieter than other trains.

They were noticeably quieter than the 150s, 156s, 507s and 508s which arrived and departed whilst I was there.

The 769's idling diesel engine purred rather than growled or rumbled. When it set off it was noticeably muted.

Obviously this is one impression, not a scientific study!

 

[jfollows]

People suggest that a 319 is significantly better than a 150 as a passenger, I don’t really see much difference. I think it depends on wether you prefer the predominantly bay seating the 319s tend to have. For all their problems inside a 195/331 is a far nicer place to be than on any of Northern’s other stock.

For services local to Wilmslow, the 319s are faster and quieter than the 150s which have been inflicted on us for nearly two years. Although I admit they’re not the best of EMUs, they are clearly more than a bit past their best.

 

[37201xoIM]

I thought some of the better 158's are just as good from the passenger point of view

Appreciate this is off-topic, but I have to travel daily on 195s (when they aren't broken, anyway!) on the Calder Valley, and they are atrocious units: I am not aware of a new unit that has worse ride quality anywhere in Europe in the last 20 years, and many have christened them "New Pacers" as the ride is arguably inferior to a class 14X. Add to that the cheap and nasty seats with generally damaged and stained fabric covers, jerky brakes, the absent window-seat alignment, the rattles and bangs that abound from seemingly every component, and the obtrusive and often wrong PIS and PA systems, and you end up with an experience that does not come close to that of a decent 158 (let alone a 170, which is a good unit). I'm amazed they were accepted in this state - but then, the TOC were under obvious pressure to do so.

I would happily travel on a 319/769 over one of these!

 

[Llama]

Your second to last sentence is the key here.

 

[D365]

I've been asked off-site whether the 769s I saw at Southport last week were quieter than other trains.

They were noticeably quieter than the 150s, 156s, 507s and 508s which arrived and departed whilst I was there.

The 769's idling diesel engine purred rather than growled or rumbled. When it set off it was noticeably muted.

Obviously this is one impression, not a scientific study!

To be fair, I think DEMUs have gotten a lot quieter in the last 15-odd years since the Voyagers were built. The Class 230s are a great example.

 

[ed1971]

Appreciate this is off-topic, but I have to travel daily on 195s (when they aren't broken, anyway!) on the Calder Valley, and they are atrocious units: I am not aware of a new unit that has worse ride quality anywhere in Europe in the last 20 years, and many have christened them "New Pacers" as the ride is arguably inferior to a class 14X. Add to that the cheap and nasty seats with generally damaged and stained fabric covers, jerky brakes, the absent window-seat alignment, the rattles and bangs that abound from seemingly every component, and the obtrusive and often wrong PIS and PA systems, and you end up with an experience that does not come close to that of a decent 158 (let alone a 170, which is a good unit). I'm amazed they were accepted in this state - but then, the TOC were under obvious pressure to do so.

I would happily travel on a 319/769 over one of these!

I have to admit that the ride quality when sat over a bogie on the 195s reminds me of of first generation DMUs. The ride quality of the 158s (and indeed all 15x Classes) is a lot better despite the units being around three decades old.

 

[js1000]

Appreciate this is off-topic, but I have to travel daily on 195s (when they aren't broken, anyway!) on the Calder Valley, and they are atrocious units: I am not aware of a new unit that has worse ride quality anywhere in Europe in the last 20 years, and many have christened them "New Pacers" as the ride is arguably inferior to a class 14X. Add to that the cheap and nasty seats with generally damaged and stained fabric covers, jerky brakes, the absent window-seat alignment, the rattles and bangs that abound from seemingly every component, and the obtrusive and often wrong PIS and PA systems, and you end up with an experience that does not come close to that of a decent 158 (let alone a 170, which is a good unit). I'm amazed they were accepted in this state - but then, the TOC were under obvious pressure to do so.

I would happily travel on a 319/769 over one of these!

I agree. Although the 319s are awfully cramped with pitiful acceleration and are increasingly unreliable.

 

[samuelmorris]

I agree. Although the 319s are awfully cramped with pitiful acceleration and are increasingly unreliable.

Increasingly unreliable? Their MTIN figures are low but have been steadily increasing and are now slightly better than every class in Northern's DMU fleet (excluding the 185 they hired) as well as the 321/9s.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Appreciate this is off-topic, but I have to travel daily on 195s (when they aren't broken, anyway!) on the Calder Valley, and they are atrocious units: I am not aware of a new unit that has worse ride quality anywhere in Europe in the last 20 years, and many have christened them "New Pacers" as the ride is arguably inferior to a class 14X. Add to that the cheap and nasty seats with generally damaged and stained fabric covers, jerky brakes, the absent window-seat alignment, the rattles and bangs that abound from seemingly every component, and the obtrusive and often wrong PIS and PA systems, and you end up with an experience that does not come close to that of a decent 158 (let alone a 170, which is a good unit). I'm amazed they were accepted in this state - but then, the TOC were under obvious pressure to do so.

I would happily travel on a 319/769 over one of these!

I’m surprised anybody feels quite that strongly about the 195s. I’m not a rail commuter but have made many journeys on 195s and 331s and they certainly aren’t perfect; I’ve made many comments on here about the PIS which is either a joke or a disgrace depending on your viewpoint, and the ride if sat over the bogies is poor but when I travel on the Bolton route my heart sinks when a 319 comes into view. Despite their faults I really don’t think the Civity is a bad train at all.

 

[hwl]

Increasingly unreliable? Their MTIN figures are low but have been steadily increasing and are now slightly better than every class in Northern's DMU fleet (excluding the 185 they hired) as well as the 321/9s.

The Northern 319 MTIN is also significantly lower than other current of former 319 TOCs which suggest some of it might be Northern! (e.g. still needs a 50% increase to match FCC/GTR era)

 

[samuelmorris]

I’m surprised anybody feels quite that strongly about the 195s. I’m not a rail commuter but have made many journeys on 195s and 331s and they certainly aren’t perfect; I’ve made many comments on here about the PIS which is either a joke or a disgrace depending on your viewpoint, and the ride if sat over the bogies is poor but when I travel on the Bolton route my heart sinks when a 319 comes into view. Despite their faults I really don’t think the Civity is a bad train at all.

I haven't ridden a 195 yet but have been on a 331 and applying the extra noise 195s seem to make they're not going to be a very pleasant environment as new trains go, but I'd still far prefer one to a Pacer or a 150/153/155. I too would probably prefer a 158 to a 195 but then that's true of most new DMUs. For 769s I suppose it really depends how loud the engine noise is inside. The other two vehicles will be much like they always have. Not ideal, but perfectly tolerable.

The Northern 319 MTIN is also significantly lower than other current of former 319 TOCs which suggest some of it might be Northern! (e.g. still needs a 50% increase to match FCC/GTR era)

The LNWR ones are almost as bad, there's only a 5% difference between them.

 

[td97]

I am not aware of a new unit that has worse ride quality anywhere in Europe in the last 20 years

Presenting the M5000

 

[AM9]

Presenting the M5000

What's that got to do with multiple unit trains?

 

[Mogster]

I’m surprised anybody feels quite that strongly about the 195s. I’m not a rail commuter but have made many journeys on 195s and 331s and they certainly aren’t perfect; I’ve made many comments on here about the PIS which is either a joke or a disgrace depending on your viewpoint, and the ride if sat over the bogies is poor but when I travel on the Bolton route my heart sinks when a 319 comes into view. Despite their faults I really don’t think the Civity is a bad train at all.

Agree. If the ride and PIS problems can be sorted they will be decent, very fast, high capacity units.

 

[sprinterguy]

769424 was at Stafford at 5pm today, I presume being delivered to Northern sandwiched between 57305, 47813 and a couple of translator vehicles.

 

[Roger B]

Does anyone know how many 769 diagrams there are expected to be in the Northern area following the May timetable change? And how likely is it that there will be sufficient units and trained drivers and train crews to operate them? Which lines/routes are likely to see them first. Thanks

 

[AMD]

I've been told that there will be a daily requirement of 6 out of 8 units available for service. There are currently 5 diagrams used to work the Alderley Edge - Southport circuit, so that feels like a hot spare with 5 in use.
Training of drivers and conductors has been on the go for a good few weeks now with still two months to go - no doubt there will be an odd hiccup with a few drivers still not trained come May, but the plan is on track.

 

[Purple Orange]

How many diagrams are expected to move over 769 in May? Of the 5 Alderley Edge - Southport diagrams, will all five be introduced immediately or should we expect to see one diagram introduced, while the other four continue as they are months?

 

[Roger B]

I've been told that there will be a daily requirement of 6 out of 8 units available for service. There are currently 5 diagrams used to work the Alderley Edge - Southport circuit, so that feels like a hot spare with 5 in use.
Training of drivers and conductors has been on the go for a good few weeks now with still two months to go - no doubt there will be an odd hiccup with a few drivers still not trained come May, but the plan is on track.

Thanks AMD. Let's hope everything goes to plan - it'll be good to see these in service.

 

[Greybeard33]

I've been told that there will be a daily requirement of 6 out of 8 units available for service. There are currently 5 diagrams used to work the Alderley Edge - Southport circuit, so that feels like a hot spare with 5 in use.

When there are 6 units available for service, could the sixth work one of the Southport to Stalybridge diagrams? This service provides the hourly calls at Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate, so the better acceleration of a 769 versus a 15x (under the wires) would improve the resilience of the Bolton line timetable.

 

[samuelmorris]

When there are 6 units available for service, could the sixth work one of the Southport to Stalybridge diagrams? This service provides the hourly calls at Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate, so the improved acceleration of a 769 versus a 15x (under the wires) would improve the resilience of the Bolton line timetable.

Is there that much of an improvement from a (heavier than usual) 319 vs a 150? People are routinely complaining about the acceleration performance of 319s even as is.

 

[Greybeard33]

Is there that much of an improvement from a (heavier than usual) 319 vs a 150? People are routinely complaining about the acceleration performance of 319s even as is.

319s are sluggish compared with 323s or 331s, but certainly swifter than a Sprinter.

 

[Grannyjoans]

319s are incredibly slow at getting up to 15-20mph though even slower than a 150 maybe. After 20mph they are much faster.

 

[mic505]

Deleted.

 

[bengley]

319s are incredibly slow at getting up to 15-20mph though even slower than a 150 maybe. After 20mph they are much faster.

They're only slow at getting to 15-20mph because of the daft policy on notching up Northern introduced after they assumed notching up too quickly was blowing motors (it wasn't)

If they are driven properly, like they were driven at Thameslink for nearly 30 years, they'll get up to speed reasonably quickly (although granted, they are still slower than 323s and 331s)

 

[AM9]

Is there that much of an improvement from a (heavier than usual) 319 vs a 150? People are routinely complaining about the acceleration performance of 319s even as is.

Notwithstanding the comment by bengley above, the 319s are not significantly "heavier than usual" in normal service, i.e. if every seat is occupied (no standees), the tare weight of a 769 is about 16 tons above that of the class 319. The weight of a 319 with every seat occupied (i.e no standees) increases by approximately 22.5 tonnes. That is how the 319s spent much of running up and down the MML slows between stations at speeds over 80mph and in the mid 90s on the 10-20mph legs on the fasts. When crush loaded, they gathered another 8+ tonnes, yet still managed one of the tightest timetables on the railway.
The proposed duties for the 769s on Southport-Alderley Edge services would involve diesel running from Southport to Bolton when passenger loads would be lower than when leaving Piccadilly or Salford Crescent, so I believe that it is unlikely that the lower power to weight ratio would have much of an impact over the electrified sectors.

 

[samuelmorris]

Notwithstanding the comment by bengley above, the 319s are not significantly "heavier than usual" in normal service, i.e. if every seat is occupied (no standees), the tare weight of a 769 is about 16 tons above that of the class 319. The weight of a 319 with every seat occupied (i.e no standees) increases by approximately 22.5 tonnes. That is how the 319s spent much of running up and down the MML slows between stations at speeds over 80mph and in the mid 90s on the 10-20mph legs on the fasts. When crush loaded, they gathered another 8+ tonnes, yet still managed one of the tightest timetables on the railway.
The proposed duties for the 769s on Southport-Alderley Edge services would involve diesel running from Southport to Bolton when passenger loads would be lower than when leaving Piccadilly or Salford Crescent, so I believe that it is unlikely that the lower power to weight ratio would have much of an impact over the electrified sectors.

It won't make a huge difference, but I would suggest 769s may very well still be crush loaded in their new guise as well as having the extra weight. I'm sure they'll cope but I would be wary of suggesting they will offer acceleration impovements over a 150 that are significant enough to warrant timetabling changes.

 

[AM9]

It won't make a huge difference, but I would suggest 769s may very well still be crush loaded in their new guise as well as having the extra weight. I'm sure they'll cope but I would be wary of suggesting they will offer acceleration impovements over a 150 that are significant enough to warrant timetabling changes.

I very much doubt they'll see the kinnd of crush loading that they have had over the first 25 years of their lives. The electric portions of SOP to ALD, i.e. are reasonably flat, i.e. with average climbs less than 5m per km from BON to Castlefields and likewise between MAN and ALD. Those gradients are about the same (althouigh shorter than the MML climb from the Brent River crossing to Elstree Summit). Then there's the 1:27 climb in the TL core so even when fully way above any regular situation on the 769 route it would seem that their performance would be adequate for the inntended service. To say that they won't be as snappy pulling away as the 331s is rather trite to say the least. 331's though would be rubbish on that route west of Bolton and their siblings the 195s would create CO2 and NOXs under the wires for about half of the whole route (through the built up areas).

 

[a_c_skinner]

I don't follow the anxieties about performance on electricity, they've done OK on Thameslink. The extra mass of the engines is about 10% which won't make a huge difference. In fact they will have 90% of the performance of the 319s. If my physics is right!