Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[childwallblues]

769434 just passed Crewe en route to Allerton. Slightly annoyed as I missed it on the cameras being towed by two 47's

47813 and 47815 were the locos.

 

[modernrail]

I would love to know what the proposed leasing cost is on the 769's v a new DMU/bi-mode and what the min leasing period is.

If they stand up against a new DMU/bi-mode but only require a 5 year min lease for payback of conversion costs plus profit to leasing co they are prob an okay idea of they ever work. If they need a much longer leasing period to payback it feels like we must be close to saying sod this for a box of frogs, order new bi-modes now.

 

[37424]

I would love to know what the proposed leasing cost is on the 769's v a new DMU/bi-mode and what the min leasing period is.

If they stand up against a new DMU/bi-mode but only require a 5 year min lease for payback of conversion costs plus profit to leasing co they are prob an okay idea of they ever work. If they need a much longer leasing period to payback it feels like we must be close to saying sod this for a box of frogs, order new bi-modes now.

I would be interesting to compare the costs against Northern 195's as well as a new Bi-mode as in Wales they are being used as a straight DEMU, and how much they get used as a Bi-mode on Northern remains to be seen.

For both this project and the 230's it seems to be a case of spending a lot of money on old turds which should be going to the scrapper. Of course any possible advantage that they might have had on been available before new stock was built has somewhat gone down the pan.

 

[edwin_m]

I would be interesting to compare the costs against Northern 195's as well as a new Bi-mode as in Wales they are being used as a straight DEMU, and how much they get used as a Bi-mode on Northern remains to be seen.

For both this project and the 230's it seems to be a case of spending a lot of money on old turds which should be going to the scrapper. Of course any possible advantage that they might have had on been available before new stock was built has somewhat gone down the pan.

As far as I can see the only reason for Wales to order 769s was the promise that they could be delivered quickly and therefore be in service well before the PRM deadline to allow other stock to be taken out of use for conversion. Had they known then what they know now it's unlikely they would have placed this order.

 

[a_c_skinner]

A little tangentially: bi-modes seem so obvious for Northern why didn't the new franchise orders include bi-modes? So many Northern routes are partly electrified one wonders why the lion's share wasn't bi-mode. I think that is a rhetorical question.

 

[Energy]

A little tangentially: bi-modes seem so obvious for Northern why didn't the new franchise orders include bi-modes? So many Northern routes are partly electrified one wonders why the lion's share wasn't bi-mode. I think that is a rhetorical question.

The general agreement here seems to be that the 195s should have been bimode and we shouldn't be buying new diesel trains, the reason why they weren't bimode is probably money.

 

[Wyrleybart]

For both this project and the 230's it seems to be a case of spending a lot of money on old turds which should be going to the scrapper. Of course any possible advantage that they might have had on been available before new stock was built has somewhat gone down the pan.

But that is the point. Both types of train are not old turds fit for scrapping just yet. The D78s had had newish bogies and traction gear and the 319s were certainly not life expired. Both trains suffered from L&SE disease - being redundant due to shiny new replacing them. Class 150s are several years older than 319s but have been extensively rebuilt, so 319s ahould ashould also have a life.

 

[D365]

so 319s ahould ashould also have a life.

"Should" is one thing. However there clearly isn't a long term desire to retain Class 319s in frontline passenger service. Note how Northern have agreed to replace their Class 319s with 323s.

I imagine the only reason that Northern are keeping their Class 769s, for now, is that they are already committed to the FLEX project.

 

[Energy]

"Should" is one thing. However there clearly isn't a long term desire to retain Class 319s in frontline passenger service. Note how Northern have agreed to replace their Class 319s with 323s.

I imagine the only reason that Northern are keeping their Class 769s, for now, is that they are already committed to the FLEX project.

Didn't Northern 319s have a few reliability issues so some got replaced with double 150s?

 

[AMD]

"Should" is one thing. However there clearly isn't a long term desire to retain Class 319s in frontline passenger service. Note how Northern have agreed to replace their Class 319s with 323s.

The reason that the 319s are being replaced by 323s was an agreement between Porterbrook, DfT and Northern - originally Northern was going to dispose of the 323 fleet and keep the 319s until at least 2025 and then LNWR decided to replace their 323 fleet. Porterbrook had a problem with no home for the 323s and a developing business with the Flex conversion, so a deal was done to change the franchise fleet plan in which the LNWR 323s head north and the last Northern 319 should go off lease possibly as soon as May 2021.

 

[jonesy3001]

The reason that the 319s are being replaced by 323s was an agreement between Porterbrook, DfT and Northern - originally Northern was going to dispose of the 323 fleet and keep the 319s until at least 2025 and then LNWR decided to replace their 323 fleet. Porterbrook had a problem with no home for the 323s and a developing business with the Flex conversion, so a deal was done to change the franchise fleet plan in which the LNWR 323s head north and the last Northern 319 should go off lease possibly as soon as May 2021.

Is that all the 323s from WMT or just 17?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Is that all the 323s from WMT or just 17?

Just the 17, although the other 9 don't have a home yet.

 

[jonesy3001]

Just the 17, although the other 9 don't have a home yet.

Sure they'll all end up with Northern.

 

[Nym]

Sure they'll all end up with Northern.

Or EMR... With the lack of 360 release?

 

[43096]

Or EMR... With the lack of 360 release?

90mph units are no use to EMR.

 

[Domh245]

90mph units are no use to EMR.

Or indeed only 9 of the things, which are dependent on delivery of stock that's yet to move under it's own power, itself reliant on the fleet currently blocking 360 release!

 

[Energy]

Well the 323s are depending on 730s arriving, the 360s depend on the 720s arriving and the 720s are arriving sooner than the 730s.

 

[JN114]

So the 323s are effectively irrelevant then....

 

[prod_pep]

I remain doubtful that all 26 of the West Midlands 323s will join Northern without more electrification and a lot of platform lengthening. There isn't enough suitable work at present to justify that number.

 

[edwin_m]

So the 323s are effectively irrelevant then....

They're too short, too slow, wrong interior layout and there aren't enough of them. Other than that they're fine...

 

[LOL The Irony]

I remain doubtful that all 26 of the West Midlands 323s will join Northern without more electrification and a lot of platform lengthening. There isn't enough suitable work at present to justify that number.

But with the government running it, extra rolling stock would be good press.

 

[3141]

A little tangentially: bi-modes seem so obvious for Northern why didn't the new franchise orders include bi-modes? So many Northern routes are partly electrified one wonders why the lion's share wasn't bi-mode. I think that is a rhetorical question.

The general agreement here seems to be that the 195s should have been bimode and we shouldn't be buying new diesel trains, the reason why they weren't bimode is probably money.

Hindsight rules!!! Bidders for the franchise were putting their bids together in 2014/15. There weren't any bi-modes available for rail in Britain. Hitachi hadn't yet produced a class 800 and they were the wrong type of train for Northern services. Getting a manufacturer to design and produce a suitable bi-mode would have taken several years. it's unlikely anyone would do it for the relatively small numbers that Northern would require, and the price would have included most or all of the development costs. Whatever the "general agreement here" might be in 2020, the bidders five years ago were living then, not today.

 

[david1212]

Is the reason for Northern having 323 sets instead of 319's because on some routes they can run pairs of 323's but not 319's so greater capacity ?

 

[samuelmorris]

Hindsight rules!!! Bidders for the franchise were putting their bids together in 2014/15. There weren't any bi-modes available for rail in Britain. Hitachi hadn't yet produced a class 800 and they were the wrong type of train for Northern services. Getting a manufacturer to design and produce a suitable bi-mode would have taken several years. it's unlikely anyone would do it for the relatively small numbers that Northern would require, and the price would have included most or all of the development costs. Whatever the "general agreement here" might be in 2020, the bidders five years ago were living then, not today.

The tender for GA was begun in February 2015. I believe the one for Northern was a few months prior to that. It's not outside the realms of possibility, but would have been more than a bit ambitious for Northern I suppose.

 

[Nym]

They're also a lot better on the routes that northern run with very frequent stops, they get up to 60 very quickly.

Also, when Alstom maintained them they were bulletproof reliable, something that may not happen now they're being maintained elsewhere.

 

[yorkie]

This thread is to discuss Porterbrook class 769 'Flex' trains for Northern.

If anyone wishes to discuss anything else, you are very welcome to create a new thread (in the appropriate forum section).

 

[TJDevon]

I would appreciate an update on the 769 situation across the board.

In particular:
1) Is any 319 modification work being carried out at the moment, or has the virus stopped evrything?
2) Is any driver training work able to take place in view of the virus related restrictions?
3) How many out of the number ordered has each TOC received - in particular TFW and Northern, as I know GWR have received none so far.
4) Has an entry into public service date been suggested by any of the TOCs concerned?
4) Realistically what is the earliest date that GWR could start to receive the first of their 19?

Any information from the learned members of this forum would be gratefully received.

TJ

 

[Red Devil]

Driver training has been suspended at the moment.
Can't help you with the other points

 

[Bob Price]

3) How many out of the number ordered has each TOC received - in particular TFW and Northern, as I know GWR have received none so far.

All Northern have been completed and delivered but not all accepted. Three TFW ones have been delivered with 008 completing some testing.

 

[Geeves]

142s now coming back on to cover the continued none availability of 769s, They should really just call it quits!