Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Red Devil]

ASLEF refuse to sanction 769's as fit for purpose until cab ergonomics are attended to.
Rumour has it Northern may be kicking them into the long grass

 

[_toommm_]

ASLEF refuse to sanction 769's as fit for purpose until cab ergonomics are attended to.
Rumour has it Northern may be kicking them into the long grass

I think we’ve had this disxussion before, but what is it about a 769 vs. a 319 that ASLEF don’t agree with exactly please?

 

[Red Devil]

I think we’ve had this disxussion before, but what is it about a 769 vs. a 319 that ASLEF don’t agree with exactly please?

Something to do with the requirement of in cab air-conditioning be fitted

 

[LOL The Irony]

Rumour has it Northern may be kicking them into the long grass

What will they replace them with though? Battery trains will require some midway charging points and there aren't enough diesel trains.

Something to do with the requirement of in cab air-conditioning be fitted

Can the passengers get some as well?

 

[tomuk]

Something to do with the requirement of in cab air-conditioning be fitted

Isn't this the same TOC who ripped out the cab cooling from the 150s transferred from GWR.

 

[Wyrleybart]

ASLEF refuse to sanction 769's as fit for purpose until cab ergonomics are attended to.
Rumour has it Northern may be kicking them into the long grass

Presumably also means the TfW and GWR ones as well, unless the Northern Aslef reps are out of tune with the other TOCs.

 

[AM9]

Presumably also means the TfW and GWR ones as well, unless the Northern Aslef reps are out of tune with the other TOCs.

Why is it that they were satisfactory for intensive service on TL in the sunny south-east, yet for some reason unacceptable for the cooler climes of Lancashire on far easier runs?

 

[Nym]

Isn't this the same TOC who ripped out the cab cooling from the 150s transferred from GWR.

Wasn't that the spot coolers that GWR had fitted rather than proper cab air conditioning on the 150s?

Why is it that they were satisfactory for intensive service on TL in the sunny south-east, yet for some reason unacceptable for the cooler climes of Lancashire on far easier runs?

That would be because in London and the SE they've not just come off a significant heavy overhaul and rebuild on the cheap that didn't fit them.
I strongly suspect there are other ergonomic issues with the cabs beyond the lack of decent cab air cooling.

Being hemmed in a box for one doesn't help, compared with the full width cabs of their new units.

Looking at the state of the cabs they don't seem to have done too badder job on the prototype, but the quality is rarely kept up, and even in the image shown, it's a complete mish mash of button types, uses them horrible pin prick constant lamp units, and isn't exactly very clear of sensible in it's layout from a human factors standpoint.


(Image of a Class 769 Flexx Cab)

 

[_toommm_]

Wasn't that the spot coolers that GWR had fitted rather than proper cab air conditioning on the 150s?

That would be because in London and the SE they've not just come off a significant heavy overhaul and rebuild on the cheap that didn't fit them.
I strongly suspect there are other ergonomic issues with the cabs beyond the lack of decent cab air cooling.

Being hemmed in a box for one doesn't help, compared with the full width cabs of their new units.

Looking at the state of the cabs they don't seem to have done too badder job on the prototype, but the quality is rarely kept up, and even in the image shown, it's a complete mish mash of button types, uses them horrible pin prick constant lamp units, and isn't exactly very clear of sensible in it's layout from a human factors standpoint.


(Image of a Class 769 Flexx Cab)
View attachment 78851

It doesn’t look like there’s that many more buttons vs. a 319 desk. I’ve always thought the 319 was a little cramped in terms of button layout though.

 

[AM9]

It doesn’t look like there’s that many more buttons vs. a 319 desk. I’ve always thought the 319 was a little cramped in terms of button layout though.

So the stated 'need' for a/c might just be a proxy for 30 year old trains not being like new types then?

 

[Nym]

It doesn’t look like there’s that many more buttons vs. a 319 desk. I’ve always thought the 319 was a little cramped in terms of button layout though.

The grouping and consistency of the primary field of view controls is horrific though. They seem to have just put stuff wherever it will fit with whatever will fit rather than considering the usage rates and cases. Yes it's compliant to the position by FoV because everything is in primary. But the ergonomics need further consideration.

 

[Tynwald]

I do think that these trains have, missed the boat now. Good idea at the time, to try and get further life out of them. But they are a 30+ year very obselete EMU, with what is now vintage technology, with diesel engines added on. Trains, the industry, technology, has moved on massively since then. I see them quietly disapearing.

 

[Red Devil]

The grouping and consistency of the primary field of view controls is horrific though. They seem to have just put stuff wherever it will fit with whatever will fit rather than considering the usage rates and cases. Yes it's compliant to the position by FoV because everything is in primary. But the ergonomics need further consideration.

Just a question. Do you sign 319's?

 

[ed1971]

I do think that these trains have, missed the boat now. Good idea at the time, to try and get further life out of them. But they are a 30+ year very obselete EMU, with what is now vintage technology, with diesel engines added on. Trains, the industry, technology, has moved on massively since then. I see them quietly disapearing.

I agree. It would have took less time to have put wires up between Wigan NW and Lostock Junction and Manchester Vic to Stalybridge and kept the units as 319s.

 

[Nym]

Just a question. Do you sign 319's?

I don't sign anything unless it's been done right...

 

[superkev]

Something to do with the requirement of in cab air-conditioning be fitted

Do Northerns 319s have working aircon in the cabs?
K

 

[Jamesrob637]

Do Northerns 319s have working aircon in the cabs?
K

I don't think so. 319 and Aircon go as well together as Donald Trump and common sense.

 

[themiller]

The 319s were supposed to have been fully refurbished with full aircon and new traction package before coming to Northern. However, plans change!

 

[Eccles1983]

It's a very simple point that aslef raise.

The 769 is a new type of train. All new trains must be fitted with a sufficient means of cab cooling, and sufficient ergonomic features. The onlder trains that don't meet this standard (150/319) have grandfather rights and therefore require no acceptance.

Strapping an engine on changes it and therefore it must meet the cab standards required.

Same for 230's

 

[Jamesrob637]

The 319s were supposed to have been fully refurbished with full aircon and new traction package before coming to Northern. However, plans change!

And given the Renatus on 321s that wouldn't make them too bad trains. At least it's not 2-car!

 

[a_c_skinner]

therefore it must meet the cab standards required.

At risk of asking a foolish question why don't builders etc ask the staff side about acceptability at the outset?

 

[Bikeman78]

It's a very simple point that aslef raise.

The 769 is a new type of train. All new trains must be fitted with a sufficient means of cab cooling, and sufficient ergonomic features. The onlder trains that don't meet this standard (150/319) have grandfather rights and therefore require no acceptance.

Strapping an engine on changes it and therefore it must meet the cab standards required.

Same for 230's

If they are going to go down the route of claiming it's a new train then wouldn't the cabs need to meet modern crashworthiness standards? Game over.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a very simple point that aslef raise.

The 769 is a new type of train. All new trains must be fitted with a sufficient means of cab cooling, and sufficient ergonomic features. The onlder trains that don't meet this standard (150/319) have grandfather rights and therefore require no acceptance.

Strapping an engine on changes it and therefore it must meet the cab standards required.

Same for 230's

230s have a rebuilt cab, 769s don't, they are a Class 319 with engines strapped on. So I don't agree with them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At risk of asking a foolish question why don't builders etc ask the staff side about acceptability at the outset?

Because it's not the builder's problem, it's the TOC's problem. Builders build the trains they are asked to build, if they do that that's their side of the deal completed.

 

[samuelmorris]

Because it's not the builder's problem, it's the TOC's problem. Builders build the trains they are asked to build, if they do that that's their side of the deal completed.

It's exploiting a technicality to get something that, while perfectly reasonable to ask for as an employee, is not necessarily a given. There is no real reason that the changes made to turn a 319 into a 769 require it to adhere to new standards on cab cooling, other than that it would ideally have been added anyway.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Because it's not the builder's problem, it's the TOC's problem.

Then why don't the TOCs do that? It seems a juvenile way of going on designed to perpetuate confrontation. It may even have saved a small fortune on the class 385s.

 

[43096]

At risk of asking a foolish question why don't builders etc ask the staff side about acceptability at the outset?

Because you’d get a list of requirements as long as your arm that were both unachievable and/or unaffordable.

 

[Eccles1983]

If they are going to go down the route of claiming it's a new train then wouldn't the cabs need to meet modern crashworthiness standards? Game over.

No. Not game over at all.

The safety case for the shell and vehicle are already in place. And that would be a matter for the ORR/RSSB.

However, as a union they are not willing to accept shoddy cab cooling anymore. So considering its role to protect and represent Drivers then they are fully entitled to refuse substandard cabs that do not have grandfather rights.

It's grim sitting in a boiling cab for up to 5 hours with no way of getting some relief. It's also very dangerous for the train as it's proven that heat is a contributory factor in fatigue - more fatigue means more incidents. I recorded a temperature in a cab of close to 40c last summer. Freight drivers reported temps even higher.
Issues also have been the seat pitch and positioning of certain controls.

Most new traction involve the union very early in the process with regards cab design. That eliminates many of the problems.

230s have a rebuilt cab, 769s don't, they are a Class 319 with engines strapped on. So I don't agree with them.

Frankly and bluntly it's irrelevant what you agree with. For far too long heating/comfort issues have been ignored. Whilst you may not care about this the union has finally stopped ignoring the amount of skeltomuscular injuries drivers have been suffering for decades.

For the purposes of cab ergonomics it's a new train.

 

[AM9]

Because you’d get a list of requirements as long as your arm that were both unachievable and/or unaffordable.

Not only that, - the TOC as the customer of the supplier is the party that has to pay the bill, whereas all other interested sundries don't so there's no self control in their aspirations.

 

[bengley]

Just to clarify - 319s do have air conditioning but it is seldom used because it's crap.