Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Jamesrob637]

If the Miseryrail trains have A/C, which are older, I can see why Northern drivers want it too.

 

[AM9]

If the Miseryrail trains have A/C, which are older, I can see why Northern drivers want it too.

The new Merseyrail class 777 trains are new design and new build. But the 769s aren't and they have an identical crew environment to the 319s which were built over 30 years ago and have been operating on Northern services since 2015.

 

[XAM2175]

What problem does ASLEF have with the driver's seat? Isn't a 769 seat the same as a 319 seat? ...

The new Merseyrail class 777 trains are new design and new build. But the 769s aren't and they have an identical crew environment to the 319s which were built over 30 years ago and have been operating on Northern services since 2015.

Conversely I think this is a valid complaint - the trains have been extensively modified and are being introduced for a role that would otherwise probably have resulted in the acquisition of new stock, so it's reasonable that drivers should receive a working environment that is at least somewhat similar to that which they'd receive in new stock. Without that requirement ROSCOs and TOCs would be able to circumvent newer standards by endlessly upcycling grandfathered kit.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The new Merseyrail class 777 trains are new design and new build. But the 769s aren't and they have an identical crew environment to the 319s which were built over 30 years ago and have been operating on Northern services since 2015.

507s and 508s have cab A/C
I'm not aware that any 777s are in service yet!

 

[Wolfie]

The union are claiming that the trains are 'new' so should have a/c. It's just opportunism.

If they are a new class then they don't get grandfather rights l guess.

 

[AM9]

Conversely I think this is a valid complaint - the trains have been extensively modified and are being introduced for a role that would otherwise probably have resulted in the acquisition of new stock, so it's reasonable that drivers should receive a working environment that is at least somewhat similar to that which they'd receive in new stock. Without that requirement ROSCOs and TOCs would be able to circumvent newer standards by endlessly upcycling grandfathered kit.

If that is the union's view then the environment isn't the real issue. If it was then they would have refused to drive the 319s. Nope, it's opportunism, - something that the Welsh unions don't seem to suffer from.

 

[XAM2175]

If that is the union's view then the environment isn't the real issue. If it was then they would have refused to drive the 319s. Nope, it's opportunism, - something that the Welsh unions don't seem to suffer from.

Um, no - it means that the Class 319 cab is grandfathered, so the union accepts that they don't have reasonable grounds to refuse it. That the "Welsh unions" are not having this dispute is down to pragmatism on TfW's behalf: they're having their units fitted with air-conditioned cabs.

 

[scrapy]

What problem does ASLEF have with the driver's seat? Isn't a 769 seat the same as a 319 seat? TfW managed to get its 769s into service in November. I know they are diesel only but I thought that the bi-mode conversion was the most problematic in terms of testing. Fewer drivers to train and only on one route?

Do TFW use the original 319s driving seat?

 

[Chris125]

TfW have indeed had air-con to theirs, was finished only last month I think?

 

[Killingworth]

TfW have indeed had air-con to theirs, was finished only last month I think?

How long does it take to manufacture, then fit to units, and how much per unit? If Northern are serious about using them and the design already exists sign an order and negotiate with ASLEF to operate on the basis that they will be operationally fully equipped by a defined date. With 195/331 shortages the need for extra stock is more necessary than it seemed a year ago.

 

[The_Train]

Can anyone provide any info regarding 769426 please?
I have this one down as a TfW unit but I have been made aware that 3 of the carriages made it to Canton before returning to Brush to meet back up with the 4th carriage - the confusing part of the info I have been sent is that this one is currently in Northern livery with Flex branding. Is it ultimately for TfW or Northern?

 

[KendalKing]

I think I read that introduction on Northern is planned from the May TT change, is that still the case? If so are they starting from Sun 16th or Mon 17th?

From Monday 17th, subject to union agreement, there are no planned Sunday workings for the 769's.

 

[AM9]

TfW have indeed had air-con to theirs, was finished only last month I think?

OK, fair enough.

 

[Jamesrob637]

From Monday 17th, subject to union agreement, there are no planned Sunday workings for the 769's.

Northern 769s out on Sundays would be the funniest thing I've heard since I don't know when!
Northern don't even need many trains on Sundays!
Although, running Sunday Southport to Manchester hourly with a two-hourly extension to Alderley Edge wouldn't be a bad idea!

 

[py_megapixel]

Northern 769s out on Sundays would be the funniest thing I've heard since I don't know when!
Northern don't even need many trains on Sundays!

I asked because the ALD-SOP was in fact originally a Sunday-only service when it was started a few years ago - the remainder of the week it only went as far as Wigan.

So is ALD-SOP on Sundays not coming back at all, or is it simply going to stay with Sprinters? As has been pointed out on other threads, the reinstatement of weekday services and not weekend ones does seem a little counter-intuitive at a time when leisure travel is more important than ever for the railway.

 

[jonnyfan]

I asked because the ALD-SOP was in fact originally a Sunday-only service when it was started a few years ago - the remainder of the week it only went as far as Wigan.

So is ALD-SOP on Sundays not coming back at all, or is it simply going to stay with Sprinters? As has been pointed out on other threads, the reinstatement of weekday services and not weekend ones does seem a little counter-intuitive at a time when leisure travel is more important than ever for the railway.

ALD-SOP hasn't been a service on a Sunday in recent years, prior to May 2018 Southport services went to Chester or Hazel Grove on a Sunday, and since May 2018 they have gone to Blackburn - and that remains the service pattern for the foreseeable.

No need for the 769s on a Sunday, they can stay tucked up in the depot.

 

[nottsnurse]

The union are claiming that the trains are 'new' so should have a/c. It's just opportunism.

I mean, heaven forbid that a union be interested in improving the working conditions of its members.

As a little reminder, those nasty unions are responsible for...

- Maximum working hours.
- Paid annual leave.
- Paid parental leave.
- The minimum wage.
- The weekend!

 

[L+Y]

Do we have any "white smoke" yet as to whether or not any 769s will enter service on Monday?

 

[AM9]

I mean, heaven forbid that a union be interested in improving the working conditions of its members.

As a little reminder, those nasty unions are responsible for...

- Maximum working hours.
- Paid annual leave.
- Paid parental leave.
- The minimum wage.
- The weekend!

Those items have been achieved by many bodies including the EU, ther Labour government (elected by ordinary voters and as you say many unions of which the rail iunions may be included. The items aren't mutually inclusive, (nor exclusive) so the point is irrelevant to this discussion as drivers have been using the 319s/769s and other stock without a/c. A class of trains with a new number because of a modification does not become a new train in terms of cab cooling, (e.g. 155 to 153).

 

[Fincra5]

Those items have been achieved by many bodies including the EU, ther Labour government (elected by ordinary voters and as you say many unions of which the rail iunions may be included. The items aren't mutually inclusive, (nor exclusive) so the point is irrelevant to this discussion as drivers have been using the 319s/769s and other stock without a/c. A class of trains with a new number because of a modification does not become a new train in terms of cab cooling, (e.g. 155 to 153).

I don't get the beef with Drivers wanting A/C or Cab Cooling on what is classed as a "New Train"... Having Driven 313s (even with cab cooling), in the Height of Summer, there is a need for aircon!

 

[js1000]

I mean, heaven forbid that a union be interested in improving the working conditions of its members.

As a little reminder, those nasty unions are responsible for...

- Maximum working hours.
- Paid annual leave.
- Paid parental leave.
- The minimum wage.
- The weekend!

I don't think anyone is disputing unions are important. But it's the "tactics" employed at times that many do not like.

 

[Wolfie]

Those items have been achieved by many bodies including the EU, ther Labour government (elected by ordinary voters and as you say many unions of which the rail iunions may be included. The items aren't mutually inclusive, (nor exclusive) so the point is irrelevant to this discussion as drivers have been using the 319s/769s and other stock without a/c. A class of trains with a new number because of a modification does not become a new train in terms of cab cooling, (e.g. 155 to 153).

It's amazing how it's a new class for some things but not for others where those benefit the staff.... Funny how TfW could fit cab aircon, l've seen it reported that GWR are fitting cab aircon but Northern, the stingiest TOC around can't be arsed so has a dispute... Go figure....

 

[py_megapixel]

It's amazing how it's a new class for some things but not for others where those benefit the staff.... Funny how TfW could fit cab aircon, l've seen it reported that GWR are fitting cab aircon but Northern, the stingiest TOC around can't be arsed so has a dispute...

And, as always, it's the passengers that are going to lose out most in the end

 

[craigybagel]

I don't think anyone is disputing unions are important. But it's the "tactics" employed at times that many do not like.

People love unions until they're the ones being affected by disruption they've caused.

 

[Fincra5]

And, as always, it's the passengers that are going to lose out most in the end

Simple Fix. As they TFW and GWR ones show, AirCon or Cab Cooling is possible so there's no excuse on Northern.

 

[Senna1210]

The gwr units have the old cab cool systems fitted in the cabs no aircon

 

[175001]

769 at the Moston end of NH in preparation for Monday

 

[jonnyfan]

I noticed yesterday evening passing Allerton depot, lots of activity around the 769s, all getting prepped for Monday I would expect. Exciting that we could potentially see 6 in service on Monday.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I noticed yesterday evening passing Allerton depot, lots of activity around the 769s, all getting prepped for Monday I would expect. Exciting that we could potentially see 6 in service on Monday.

That would free up so many diesels Northern would have an epiphany and store them in depots rather than actually strengthen services

 

[Bikeman78]

That would free up so many diesels Northern would have an epiphany and store them in depots rather than actually strengthen services

If they don't want to use them then I'm sure TfW would be happy to hire them over the summer!