Portillo calls Grayling most incompetent of all time

[306024]

Meanwhile the average minister's tenure is 11 months (according to Yes Minister!) So neither ministers or civil servants are in a job long enough to understand it. Could explain something.......

 

[DerekC]

Meanwhile the average minister's tenure is 11 months (according to Yes Minister!) So neither ministers or civil servants are in a job long enough to understand it. Could explain something.......

Yes. And put that with the fact that the post-privatisation industry structure only works if DfT is a competent owner of the network on behalf of the public and that could explain a lot more! It isn't that civil servants are stupid or lazy or that the current lot of ministers are particularly incompetent, it's just that the whole thing is designed to fail, particularly when it is subject to change.

Hopefully Mr Williams is thinking hard about all this in his review.

 

[aye2beeviasea]

He has made an utter mess of every department he's worked in though. He's not unfortunate at all. Useless is a more apt word .Taking books off prisoners . I mean, punish them for their crimes, but taking books off them strikes as being a particularly idiotic thing to do when you want them to be rehabilitated .So taking away a form of education will not help.

To give you some measure of what people in other areas of government think about Grayling, there was celebration when he was replaced in the Justice job by ... Michael Gove.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

And the way that the civil service works, with people rotating jobs very regularly between departments, is designed to avoid the civil servants building up a store of expertise with which they can challenge ministerial decisions.

Wow not thought of it that very cynical way.

 

[Dave1987]

Graylings legacy:

1: Electrification cancelled and bi-modes now considered the solution for everything.

2: New trains bonanza meaning perfectly serviceable electric stock going for scrap inevitably resulting in higher leasing costs.

3: Industrial relations at an all time low.

Yup he has definitely been the worse!

 

[Meerkat]

2: New trains bonanza meaning perfectly serviceable electric stock going for scrap inevitably resulting in higher leasing costs.

How can having surplus stock INCREASE leasing costs?

 

[Dave1987]

How can having surplus stock INCREASE leasing costs?

Many well respected industry journalists have commented that if a leasing company is forced to scrap their assets mid life and they will increase leasing costs to offset the potential that their stock will become off lease and have to be scrapped earlier than they would want. If trains have a shorter life span then the costs to lease them will go up to offset for their shorter life.

 

[AndrewE]

How can having surplus stock INCREASE leasing costs?

I would have answered slightly differently:
The RoSCos have made their investments by buying the BR stock and lots more since. They expect to get their pound of flesh: they are not in business to make losses (or even see their returns decrease.) They have the whip hand (no-one can run a train service without the stock to do it) so if any is handed back they will just increase the lease costs on the stuff that is still in use.

 

[bramling]

How can having surplus stock INCREASE leasing costs?

Because trains aren’t built for free. If the leasing company is only getting 20 years out of that investment instead of 40 then they will increase leasing costs to reflect this.

Likewise if surplus stock is scrapped then by definition there won’t be a surplus any more.

 

[Meerkat]

Because trains aren’t built for free. If the leasing company is only getting 20 years out of that investment instead of 40 then they will increase leasing costs to reflect this.

Likewise if surplus stock is scrapped then by definition there won’t be a surplus any more.

But if that was the case why are new trains cheap enough to compete with old trains?
And scrapping your assets doesn’t sound like a good way to make money.....

 

[HLE]

He's also got people like Peter Wilkinson working for him. Doesn't help his cause at all. The man said at a meeting years back that it was 'his industry' and that there were going to be punch ups with drivers going forward. Hardly the way to go about things. Feel a little sorry for Grayling having someone like him as a sidekick.

He's the one to blame for the botched expansion of DOO. And for the misery it's caused to traincrew and passengers the last few years. Has it really made a difference?

 

[Dave1987]

But if that was the case why are new trains cheap enough to compete with old trains?
And scrapping your assets doesn’t sound like a good way to make money.....

This isn’t exactly rocket science. The DFT have made is VERY clear to prospective bidders of franchises that new trains win franchises. Basically unless you have new trains in your franchise bid you are not going to win. And when those mid life trains have no home to go to if there is no prospect of a new lease the owner isn’t going to pay to store it for years in the vain hope the DFT will see sense. They will scrap them. They will then make assumptions that stock will only be in use for half of the time that they calculated and raise leasing costs accordingly to get their moneys worth out of the asset in a shorter time.

 

[w1bbl3]

But if that was the case why are new trains cheap enough to compete with old trains?
And scrapping your assets doesn’t sound like a good way to make money.....

New trains are cheaper due to new entrants into the leasing market with different finance models, in particular pricing assets on a similar basis to infrastructure (low risk). If the cycle repeats at the next re-franchising then yes the cycle after that will likely see lease costs go up as providers price for 7-10 years rather than 30.
It's difficult for ROSCOs as whilst they could increase costs next time round to recover losses on trains returned early in doing so they run the risk of another provider or new entrant undercutting them with new build stock. The infrastructure finance market is incredibly distorted at the moment as there is a lot money chasing stable returns which that market appears to be able to offer, up until a couple of years ago it was inconceivable that stock would be replaced at mid-life let alone only five years old. Some of the newer entrants are assuming implicitly for their financial models to work that the current new train bonanza is a once in a generation phenomena and they'll manage 30 odd years of leasing out of their stock, we shall see what happens.

Trains like cars and trucks need ongoing maintenance, security and insurance so there comes a point when storage does not make sense and scrapping becomes most economic option.

 

[WatcherZero]

While Grayling is far from on top of his portfolio and indeed probably one of the least successful transport secretarys of all time. I don't really condone this support coming from Portillio who is a firm opponent of HS2 and a no deal Brexit advocate.

 

[Busaholic]

In the R4 Profile mentioned before, his 'great friend' Liam Fox came to his impassioned defence. Talk about Tweedledum and Tweedledumber

 

[HLE]

While Grayling is far from on top of his portfolio and indeed probably one of the least successful transport secretarys of all time. I don't really condone this support coming from Portillio who is a firm opponent of HS2 and a no deal Brexit advocate.

Let's leave the politics for the brexit thread.

To me he sounds intelligent. To you, probably the opposite.

 

[FenMan]

That used to be how it worked, but it doesn't any more. In the post-Thatcher, post - "Yes Minister" world the civil service is expected to implement policy and not argue about it. And the way that the civil service works, with people rotating jobs very regularly between departments, is designed to avoid the civil servants building up a store of expertise with which they can challenge ministerial decisions.

Away from Transport, Grayling was a totally disastrous Justice Secretary. I'm doubtful if the probation service will ever recover.

 

[ic31420]

Away from Transport, Grayling was a totally disastrous Justice Secretary. I'm doubtful if the probation service will ever recover.

Yes the private companies certainly have some interesting dis/incentives built into their payment terms. I'll be kind and say they're extremely naive or shortsighted.

 

[Class 170101]

He's also got people like Peter Wilkinson working for him. Doesn't help his cause at all. The man said at a meeting years back that it was 'his industry' and that there were going to be punch ups with drivers going forward. Hardly the way to go about things. Feel a little sorry for Grayling having someone like him as a sidekick.

He's the one to blame for the botched expansion of DOO. And for the misery it's caused to traincrew and passengers the last few years. Has it really made a difference?

But as the SoS he is responsible for controlling his sidekick. The bucks stops with Grayling plain and simple.

 

[SamYeager]

And the way that the civil service works, with people rotating jobs very regularly between departments, is designed to avoid the civil servants building up a store of expertise with which they can challenge ministerial decisions.

And there was me thinking it was so that senior civil servants could never realistically be held liable for long running major projects since whoever was in charge at the start had since moved on and could blame their successors and their succesors could blame those in place originally for faulty assumptions and providing insufficient resources.

 

[DerekC]

And there was me thinking it was so that senior civil servants could never realistically be held liable for long running major projects since whoever was in charge at the start had since moved on and could blame their successors and their succesors could blame those in place originally for faulty assumptions and providing insufficient resources.

To be fair, that's not just a civil service issue. I have had lots of experience in private industry of the same thing. The trick is to arrive, make a big fuss about the mess the project is in, reorganise and kick out a few randomly selected people, find something that will make good TV footage, get yourself lots of publicity and get promoted (or a new job at a higher salary) before anyone works out that you have made things worse rather than better! That works quite well for Secretaries of State when there is a change of government, but otherwise you are supposed to be nice about your predecessor.

Any bets as to who will succeed Grayling? (I can't believe he will survive the next reshuffle)

 

[LeylandLen]

Any bets as to who will succeed Grayling? (I can't believe he will survive the next reshuffle)

Saw Nusrat Munir Ul-Ghani MP ,tagged a Transport minister , making a statement in Parliament today , she did impress me.
(She was making a statement about collapse of Flybmi )
Research says she is Tory MP for Wealden in East Sussex.

 

[Mikey C]

To be fair, that's not just a civil service issue. I have had lots of experience in private industry of the same thing. The trick is to arrive, make a big fuss about the mess the project is in, reorganise and kick out a few randomly selected people, find something that will make good TV footage, get yourself lots of publicity and get promoted (or a new job at a higher salary) before anyone works out that you have made things worse rather than better! That works quite well for Secretaries of State when there is a change of government, but otherwise you are supposed to be nice about your predecessor.

Any bets as to who will succeed Grayling? (I can't believe he will survive the next reshuffle)

We live in strange times. Grayling is probably just as likely to become the next PM as he is to be sacked!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

We live in strange times. Grayling is probably just as likely to become the next PM as he is to be sacked!

Please God no!

 

[Dave1987]

Yet another couple of nails in the coffin of Grayling. 30 odd million quid to Euro Tunnel for failed ferry contract shenanigans. Plus his policy on commercialising the probation sector when he was Justice Secretary has been highly criticised and has cost the taxpayer dearly. Yet PM has “full confidence” in him. “Failing Grayling” is highly appropriate.

 

[modernrail]

No Minister of State, from any party, is competent to do their job. They rely heavily on the army of Civil Servants who serve whichever party is in power. Having spent some 53 years of my life working in the railway industry I am absolutely certain that the DfT is not fit for purpose. Grayling (my MP) is far from perfect but he has been let down badly by the very people he has to rely on. How many times have they got the East Coast franchise wrong? West coast fiasco? Timetable change? The list goes on and on ...

Just remember, if you think he should be replaced, try naming the one who should replace him, you all know who is available from the present government, name his successor.

Agree with a lot of that but this ferry fiasco is his gig. £33 million handed over to Eurotunnel shareholders for a complete screw up over very basic State Aid points that Grayling should understand like the back of his hand bearing in mind he is a Leaver and in Government and therefore has a moral and political duty to understand how this stuff works. That is basically the equivalent of about 12 new trains for Northern up in smoke because Brexit means idiots are allowed to stay at the wheel and are making increasingly bizarre decision that involve spending our money. I would love to know what we are up to already in terms of Brexit costs. Of course the Brexiteers and so called Taxpayers Alliance seem surprisingly disinterested in taxpayer value provided it is being decided by their shambles of a minority Government.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yet another couple of nails in the coffin of Grayling. 30 odd million quid to Euro Tunnel for failed ferry contract shenanigans. Plus his policy on commercialising the probation sector when he was Justice Secretary has been highly criticised and has cost the taxpayer dearly. Yet PM has “full confidence” in him. “Failing Grayling” is highly appropriate.

Allegedly he went into the wrong voting lobby last night!

 

[LOL The Irony]

Yet another couple of nails in the coffin of Grayling. 30 odd million quid to Euro Tunnel for failed ferry contract shenanigans. Plus his policy on commercialising the probation sector when he was Justice Secretary has been highly criticised and has cost the taxpayer dearly. Yet PM has “full confidence” in him. “Failing Grayling” is highly appropriate.

Allegedly he went into the wrong voting lobby last night!

He's not sticking around after May leaves. I expect a P45 on his desk as soon as the new PM comes in.

 

[Esker-pades]

Allegedly he went into the wrong voting lobby last night!

That puts him up there with Baldrick in his level of incompetence.

 

[Dave1987]

Allegedly he went into the wrong voting lobby last night!

Blimey wonder how he will try and blame that on others as it’s never his fault.