Possibility of a full-size electric heritage railway

[DustyBin]

Just as a thought how far would the MLV vehicles run on battery? I assume not far as think they only did Folkestone Harbour to the pierhead and return?

As per my post upthread, I’ve travelled the length of the EKR behind one hauling a 2EPB.

Is there anything (other than funds!) preventing an MLV being fitted with modern battery technology? It may even be possible to have the MLV provide power to another EMU, which would make for an even more authentic experience.

You could of course keep things simple by packing people into the MLV itself like cattle and be done with it!

 

[Gwr12345]

It may even be possible to have the MLV provide power to another EMU, which would make for an even more authentic experience.

I think this is what the Eden Valley Railway already do,albeit on a small stretch of line. (At least with MLVs)

Eden Valley Railway, Warcop, Cumbria The Cumbrian Boat Train

Eden Valley Railway page about the operation of Motor Luggage Vans (MLVs) and a 4-CEP in a recreation of the Folkestone Boat Trains in May 2019 in Warcop in Cumbria on the Eden Valley Railway

www.evr-cumbria.org.uk

Will be running on the third Sunday of each month from April to October again this year. The dates are further down this page.

Amongst the motive power and rolling stock at Warcop are two Southern Region Motor Luggage Vans (MLVs) and two 4-CEPs. The MLVs were used in the early days at Warcop (2003 - 2005) on brake van rides from Warcop to the headshunt at Flitholme. When the line heading towards Appleby was back in use from 2006 the MLVs were used on battery power with one of the 4-CEPs on passenger trains from Warcop to the Sandford road bridge, a distance of about one and three quarter miles, sharing duties with DEMU 205009. Due to the deteriorating condition of the batteries this ceased in either 2010 or 2011, the only use on passenger work since then having been a trip to Flitholme for the Branch Line Society and a similar trip for trust members after the 2014 AGM.

In 2017 and 2018 new batteries were procured for the MLVs and it was hoped that they could be returned to passenger use, but electrical problems prevented this from happening. In February 2019 two successful trial runs were made over the extended running line to Southfields (almost two and a quarter miles): these were recorded on video:

Following this a further trial was done to see if the batteries were powerful enough to cope with six return trips on an hourly basis (the regular timetable at Warcop). The test was passed with flying colours and so it was decided to use the MLVs/4-CEP combination in service on Sunday 12th May 2019.

Following the success of this first running day we ran the train on the third Sunday of each month up to October 2019.

 

[DustyBin]

I think this is what the Eden Valley Railway already do,albeit on a small stretch of line. (At least with MLVs)

Eden Valley Railway, Warcop, Cumbria The Cumbrian Boat Train

Eden Valley Railway page about the operation of Motor Luggage Vans (MLVs) and a 4-CEP in a recreation of the Folkestone Boat Trains in May 2019 in Warcop in Cumbria on the Eden Valley Railway

www.evr-cumbria.org.uk

Interesting, so the CEPs are actually powered? I’ve always presumed they were hauled to be honest.

 

[Richard Scott]

Interesting, so the CEPs are actually powered? I’ve always presumed they were hauled to be honest.

Would have thought they were hauled by MLV, don't think any way of powering them is there?

 

[Sun Chariot]

Interesting, so the CEPs are actually powered? I’ve always presumed they were hauled to be honest.

To my knowledge, the CEP/BEP are unchanged from BR practice, in that the MLVs provide traction but the power / braking controls via the MU connections, to the CEP/BEP.

 

[DustyBin]

Would have thought they were hauled by MLV, don't think any way of powering them is there?

To my knowledge, the CEP/BEP are unchanged from BR practice, in that the MLVs provide traction but the power / braking controls via the MU connections, to the CEP/BEP.

Thanks both, I thought that was the case.

I can’t see the batteries being up to powering more than the MLV’s own two motors, but going back to my previous point, battery technology has come a long way so this could offer a solution. Am I right in thinking that the original jumper cable arrangement doesn’t carry traction current? I’m sure that could be overcome though.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Am I right in thinking that the original jumper cable arrangement doesn’t carry traction current?

That's right, BR(S) multiple wiring didn’t feed MLV's traction current to other vehicle(s).
The link I put in post #59, mentions regular turns of MLV + van (GUV or GLV I expect).
I had 4EPB 5001 dragged by a pair of MLVs, albeit between Folkestone Harbour station and the pier head.

 

[Richard Scott]

I would imagine the guard's compartment in the unit could hold batteries for traction if someone was inclined to pay fir such a modification? Would need a 750V bus though due to CEP vehicles having two outer motor vehicles. A VEP or a CIG may be easier due to guard's compartment being in the motor coach?

 

[Krokodil]

Is there anything (other than funds!) preventing an MLV being fitted with modern battery technology?

Shouldn't be too difficult. May also be able to use whatever cargo weight allowance the van has to add a few more.

Am I right in thinking that the original jumper cable arrangement doesn’t carry traction current? I’m sure that could be overcome though.

I doubt that you'll be able to do that. Traction current cables between vehicles are usually permanently wired, it's not something you want a shunter handling.

 

[DJ_K666]

Yes, with regards to timetabling the Thumper was acquired to allow earlier services from East Grinstead. It has been suggested if Ardingly was reopened it would do:

Sheffield Park - East Grinstead
East Grinstead - Sheffield Park
Sheffield Park - Ardingly
Then shuttles to Horsted platform 1, and the reverse in the afternoon/evening.

But anyway, a battery EMU would definitely be interesting. People have proposed a 2HAL or 2BIL, the sort of EMUs that used to run the Horsted - Seaford service but that would have to be a new build. Personally would love to see an EMU running on the juice rail but the safety implications just make it impossible.

Absolutely. The NRM 2BIL might run with a (large) battery pack and a jumper lead type thing but that'd take a bit of lateral thinking.
A new build 2 HAL would be interesting.

Shouldn't be too difficult. May also be able to use whatever cargo weight allowance the van has to add a few more.


I doubt that you'll be able to do that. Traction current cables between vehicles are usually permanently wired, it's not something you want a shunter handling.

The 27 way jumper cable certainly does carryvtraction current. Think of it as a long bus wire the length of the train. There's a similar one at buffer beam level between coaches within the unit. These are perfectly safe and are handles much like large plugs and held in place by a lip on the cover. It also carries a few other power related things instead of having multiple plugs and cables like other types of coupling. It's designed for quick and easy attaching and detaching at stations, along with a common air shut off for the accompanying air hoses.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I've lifted this pertinent info from the attached thread:

"1963 stock (VEPs CIGs etc) had power receptacles on each end of the motor coach only, none on the nose ends of the driving vehicles.
David Brown's book "Southern Electric - a New History" mentions the EPBs originally had power end-connectors, but it was found not useful - not to mention dangerous to staff - and was removed.
Depot "shore supply" (750v) plugged into the power receptacle on the Secondman's side."

Class 73/0 jumper cables

On the first batch of class 73s, which were the 73/0s, they had an extra jumper cable, which the 73/1s didn't have. The jumper cable was a high level one, not a blue star one. So, what was the extra jumper cable for, and if two 73/0s were in multiple, did both jumper cables have to be used?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Richard Scott]

The 27 way jumper cable certainly does carryvtraction current. Think of it as a long bus wire the length of the train. There's a similar one at buffer beam level between coaches within the unit. These are perfectly safe and are handles much like large plugs and held in place by a lip on the cover. It also carries a few other power related things instead of having multiple plugs and cables like other types of coupling. It's designed for quick and easy attaching and detaching at stations, along with a common air shut off for the accompanying air hoses

I very much doubt any traction current is carried through those cables, far to small an area to carry such large current.

 

[Krokodil]

The 27 way jumper cable certainly does carryvtraction current.

You got a source for that? There's no way that you'd get traction current AND the low voltage control wires into a jumper that size. You'd melt it!

I had a document years ago that listed what each pin did. No idea what became of it though.

 

[DJ_K666]

I very much doubt any traction current is carried through those cables, far to small an area to carry such large current.

Or is it a control cable? Obviously the current goes from the collector shoes to the motors, but then if only one shoe is on the third rail at the opposite end of the train then it has to get to the motors somehow, and on a 12 car EMU that can only go through the inter-unit jumper cable. I'll ask on RMWeb as there are ex-SR guys on there.

 

[Krokodil]

Or is it a control cable? Obviously the current goes from the collector shoes to the motors, but then if only one shoe is on the third rail at the opposite end of the train then it has to get to the motors somehow, and on a 12 car EMU that can only go through the inter-unit jumper cable. I'll ask on RMWeb as there are ex-SR guys on there.

It will be a control cable. Traction current will be carried between vehicles within the same unit, but not from one unit to the next.

 

[DJ_K666]

You got a source for that? There's no way that you'd get traction current AND the low voltage control wires into a jumper that size. You'd melt it!

I had a document years ago that listed what each pin did. No idea what became of it though.

.yep. I just dug out an old NSE training video. It is a control cable.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Or is it a control cable? Obviously the current goes from the collector shoes to the motors, but then if only one shoe is on the third rail at the opposite end of the train then it has to get to the motors somehow, and on a 12 car EMU that can only go through the inter-unit jumper cable. I'll ask on RMWeb as there are ex-SR guys on there.

Have a look at the info I wrote & linked in posts #71 and #67

 

[43096]

The 27 way jumper cable certainly does carryvtraction current. Think of it as a long bus wire the length of the train.

It certainly does not - you are completely incorrect about that. It is a control jumper only - there isn’t even power for heating, lighting etc down that jumper. And definitely no traction power.

There's a similar one at buffer beam level between coaches within the unit.

There are power jumpers within the unit.

 

[DJ_K666]

It certainly does not - you are completely incorrect about that. It is a control jumper only - there isn’t even power for heating, lighting etc down that jumper. And definitely no traction power.

As has been said up thread, thanks. I suggest you go and look and do not post in that tone again.

 

[DustyBin]

It will be a control cable. Traction current will be carried between vehicles within the same unit, but not from one unit to the next.

That's what I thought; you have non-powered vehicles fitted with pickup shoes after all.

I suppose you could couple the MLV to the EPB, CEP etc. semi-permanently, replicating the arrangement.

There's some good info above, cheers everyone.

 

[nwales58]

We can be envious:

https://www.sbbhistoric.ch/charterfahrten/

choice of 6 types of motive power.

 

[david1212]

I can not see this ever happening 3rd rail or overhead as far too many regulations to be met.

The best will be along the lines of the plan for the ex-IOW pairs 483 006 & 483 008. One car will contain batteries with the other 3 for passengers. If there was a high power link between the sets so both with powered bogies the ride would be a better, as in more realistic to previous use, experience for all rather than 1/3rd of the passengers but that comes at a cost.

If the objective is achieved the set can be taken various railways where as if one railway was electrified only those who can travel to it can have the experience.

 

[m0ffy]

It would never happen, but what would be the ballpark cost of a 10 mile, 25kV electrification scheme? £15M?

 

[Krokodil]

It would never happen, but what would be the ballpark cost of a 10 mile, 25kV electrification scheme? £15M?

Depends how many bridges need raising

 

[StephenHunter]

We can be envious:

https://www.sbbhistoric.ch/charterfahrten/

choice of 6 types of motive power.

That's a dedicated fleet operating under the main railway operator; Italy and Hungary have one too. That is probably the best option for AC preservation.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

It will be a control cable. Traction current will be carried between vehicles within the same unit, but not from one unit to the next.

From memory, the 27-wire control cable carried functions for Forward, Reverse, Shunt, Series, parallel, compressor governor, EP brake on/off, Westinghouse brake on/off, heating, lighting, Loudaphone, starting bells, weak field and others that I can't remember. Weak field wasn't a function on all Southern EMUs I believe

I think the power was carried via a bus/cable in between units but not via jumpers at cab ends post 1957. A cab end receptacle was provided for shed shore supply

 

[Belperpete]

The difficulties of adding third rail or overheads to an existing non-electrified preserved railway surely means that it won't happen. What would be the attraction for the general. (non-enthusiast) public? Because unless it attracts them in sufficient numbers, it won't be financially viable.

The big question that doesn't seem to have been addressed is : why do you want an electrified preserved railway? If it is to run specific items of preserved stock (and I wouldn't mind a ride in a 4DD), then surely the simplest and easiest solution would be to restore it to mainline standards, and run it on the national network.

The only hope I see for a new preserved electric railway would be if an existing electrified line were slated for closure. Can't think of any obvious contenders.

 

[Sun Chariot]

From memory, the 27-wire control cable carried functions for Forward, Reverse, Shunt, Series, parallel, compressor governor, EP brake on/off, Westinghouse brake on/off, heating, lighting, Loudaphone, starting bells, weak field and others that I can't remember. Weak field wasn't a function on all Southern EMUs I believe

I think the power was carried via a bus/cable in between units but not via jumpers at cab ends post 1957. A cab end receptacle was provided for shed shore supply

Bang on the money. Concurs with post #71

 

[eldomtom2]

then surely the simplest and easiest solution would be to restore it to mainline standards, and run it on the national network.

That's not especially simple or easy...

 

[Indigo Soup]

Surely the most likely opportunity for this to happen is the Old Dalby Test Track if the incumbents get to a stage, at some point in the future, where they think that it’s no longer fit for purpose, or doesn’t get used enough?

Something like this is probably the only way. It's bound to be easier to preserve an electrified railway, than to electrify a preserved railway. The safety case will be easier to demonstrate, the infrastructure already exists, and you won't have to deal with rose-tinted spectacles quite so much.

That said... I have a sense that the electric stock that would be most appealing to the general public is vintage 750V third rail EMUs. The regulatory response to new 750V in the hands of the operational railway is a firm 'No'. In the hands of a preserved railway, not a chance.