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Possible alternative to Leeds Bradford Airport Parkway ?

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Halifaxlad

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With WYCA consulting yet again on their refined proposals for this new station called 'Leeds Bradford Airport Parkway' and with the impact of COVID and resistance to Leeds Bradford Airport Expansion, this has got me thinking about potential alternatives.

This proposed station aims to do two things...

1) Provide access to Leeds Bradford Airport via a shuttle bus (presumably an extension of one of the existing bus services)

2) Provide a parkway for Leeds!

As an alternative for 1)

The existing airport could be served by a shuttle bus from Horsforth via a new road, although this would have to approach the station from the North. Similar to Mark T suggestion in the thread 'Leeds Bradford Airport - Alternative rail access proposals?' (https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ive-rail-access-proposals.169772/post-3655953) Although I would remove the turnback siding so the land could be made into a road in order to allow this shuttle bus service to pick up directly from the Harrogate bound platform. If a turnback siding is desired/required in the future I would put a short chord in at Arthington using the old trackbed of the Otley line. Possibly running it as close to Poole in Wharfedale as possible where a single platform could be created.

As an alternative for 2)

I would build the proposed 'Horsforth Woodside' station that is South of Horsforth by about the same distance Burley Park is away from Headingley.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsforth_Woodside_railway_station)

The new stations study 2014 does say in relation to this...

"4.31.Horsforth Woodside appears to offer the best potential business case, with no significant construction or operational issues identified (although the gradient is 1 in 100), and a reasonable level of trip potential demonstrated by the forecasting model."

Ironically LBA Parkway is also assessed in this report although its referred to as Cookridge and probably doesn't include the benefits of a link to the airport. "North of Horsforth, the sites of Cookridge and Arthington Parkway both scored poorly in the 4.32.assessment."

The 'New Railway Stations in North and West Yorkshire Feasibility Study Final Report West Yorkshire Combined Authority 14 October 2014' can be found here. https://web.archive.org/web/20160304060333/http://www.wymetro.com/uploadedFiles/WYMetro/Content/news/projects/projectdetails/New Stations Study Report v1.0 FINAL Redacted.pdf
 
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bluenoxid

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Option 1: Great idea but any project faces a difficult CPO and land procurement for the access road and a car park. Never underestimate Leeds NIMBYs particularly with transport projects.

Option 2: Space for a car park, plus access is through communities or the single carriageway sections of the outer ring road. Kirkstall Forge is a 15 minute walk.
 
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YorksLad12

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There aren't really alternatives. Horsforth Station is too cramped to extend for further P&R opportunities, and that road junction is a nightmare at the best of times (happy though my memories of Horsforth are). If Horsforth Woodside was viable it would have been built by now - it's been on the drawing board for around 30 years.

Should the station be built at all? Not in my view, no. If I'm at Leeds Station I'll have the option of a train then a connecting bus/coach, whereas right now I can get a direct bus/coach from the front of the station. It even appears in journey planners (see RTT). One change with all of my luggage, or two? And to get out of LBAP to the connecting bus/coach I'll have to drag that luggage to the lifts... along with everyone else making the same trip.

It's not close to the Airport, let alone the terminal building, being in a cutting down a hill; it's even further away from the employment area it's also supposed to be supporting. So my "alternative" would be to not build it and spend the £42m elsewhere - which they probably can't, as that money is part of the £175m-ish Leeds was gifted by DfT when the trolleybus scheme was pulled.
 

HST43257

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There aren't really alternatives. Horsforth Station is too cramped to extend for further P&R opportunities, and that road junction is a nightmare at the best of times (happy though my memories of Horsforth are). If Horsforth Woodside was viable it would have been built by now - it's been on the drawing board for around 30 years.

Should the station be built at all? Not in my view, no. If I'm at Leeds Station I'll have the option of a train then a connecting bus/coach, whereas right now I can get a direct bus/coach from the front of the station. It even appears in journey planners (see RTT). One change with all of my luggage, or two? And to get out of LBAP to the connecting bus/coach I'll have to drag that luggage to the lifts... along with everyone else making the same trip.

It's not close to the Airport, let alone the terminal building, being in a cutting down a hill; it's even further away from the employment area it's also supposed to be supporting. So my "alternative" would be to not build it and spend the £42m elsewhere - which they probably can't, as that money is part of the £175m-ish Leeds was gifted by DfT when the trolleybus scheme was pulled.
Agreed. £42m wasted when anyone coming by public transport can get the existing frequent bus from Leeds station itself. Could get a bit towards electrification schemes
 

yoyothehobo

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As a Leeds resident this just seems totally pointless to me, it is too close into Leeds to be a worthwhile P and R from that direction.

You might as well save money by just running a shuttle bus from Guiseley or Apperley Bridge and just use the frequency of services on the Airedale Line to provide the services. As a rail link the Horsforth line is probably the most pointless one to stick the station on.

I have used the airport specific buses frequently and they are not bad, wifi, charging sports, drop you right at the front of the terminal and when i lived in Kirkstall near the Abbey had the opportunity to fall out of bed onto the bus.

For the majority of people who would use this station would have to go to Leeds, change onto a different train up to the airport, then get a bus, cant see that being much fun for families and holiday flights for which the majority of LBA normal custom is.
 

Halifaxlad

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There aren't really alternatives. Horsforth Station is too cramped to extend for further P&R opportunities, and that road junction is a nightmare at the best of times (happy though my memories of Horsforth are). If Horsforth Woodside was viable it would have been built by now - it's been on the drawing board for around 30 years.
You wouldn't need create more parking at Horsforth if parking for Leeds was provided elsewhere, that was the point of providing it along with the proposed Horsforth Woodside station. Apologies if I didn't make this clear enough.

The road junction at Horsforth also isn't needed if the access road was routed from the North of the station as per the suggestion. It only needs to be for a bus coming from the airport.

As for viability, you could say the same for many stations such as Elland, that is also now being progressed!

It's not close to the Airport, let alone the terminal building, being in a cutting down a hill; it's even further away from the employment area it's also supposed to be supporting. So my "alternative" would be to not build it and spend the £42m elsewhere - which they probably can't, as that money is part of the £175m-ish Leeds was gifted by DfT when the trolleybus scheme was pulled.
Surely that just means that 175m can't be spent outside of Leeds ?
 

YorksLad12

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You wouldn't need create more parking at Horsforth if parking for Leeds was provided elsewhere, that was the point of providing it along with the proposed Horsforth Woodside station. Apologies if I didn't make this clear enough.

The road junction at Horsforth also isn't needed if the access road was routed from the North of the station as per the suggestion. It only needs to be for a bus coming from the airport.

As for viability, you could say the same for many stations such as Elland, that is also now being progressed!


Surely that just means that 175m can't be spent outside of Leeds ?

No, I think we're on the same page. What I was trying to say was that if a P&R site was required then the plans for Horsforth Woodside could have been dusted off. LBAP seems more a case of justifying the expense of an awkwardly-placed station not all that close to the Airport by adding in the P&R element. On Horsforth; there's also a plan somewhere I think for a new footbridge so that passengers don't have to risk life & limb on the Station Road bridge o_O

Sadly there's no way a route out of the station northwards and into Sussex Avenue (for parking traffic) would ever happen, and creating an access route to the southern end of Scotland Lane, while oodles cheaper, would never get past the locals. Also, I thought that was all Green Belt land; I thought was, in the 1980s, but the Uni has had new, taller buildings (on the site of old ones) so I guess not.

Elland's an odd one; should have opened 20 years ago with Brighouse, it must have enough households nearby to make it viable, it might relieve pressure on Brighouse (or its car park) and could probably be delivered for £10m.
 

bluenoxid

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Problem with using Horsforth Woodside is that the current plans for development don’t have many spaces set aside. This would requires trees to be felled.

The railway service gets people out of the city centre much quicker and reliably than the existing bus service. Whilst bucket and spade holidays drive a lot of traffic at the airport, frequent flights on low cost operators attract people who would be interested in fixed infrastructure that just the bus service doesn’t offer.
 

MarkyT

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Problem with using Horsforth Woodside is that the current plans for development don’t have many spaces set aside. This would requires trees to be felled.

The railway service gets people out of the city centre much quicker and reliably than the existing bus service. Whilst bucket and spade holidays drive a lot of traffic at the airport, frequent flights on low cost operators attract people who would be interested in fixed infrastructure that just the bus service doesn’t offer.
Reposting my previous concept sketch, it would convert Horsforth into a double-ended station with a new road (cyan), car park (blue) and bus shuttle (orange) entrance at the platforms' north end and the old existing entrance retained at the south end, linked by pedestrian and cycle infrastructure (magenta). There would be no public vehicular road connection between the two ends of the station, so the scheme would not bring new road traffic out onto Station Road, yet the arangement would provide much better local bus and pedestrian connections to the facility, and avoid an extra closely spaced stop being added to Harrogate trains, or more likely an awkward skip-stop pattern that results in no increase in frequency at Horsforth from additional trains.
1611258129861.png
 

Halifaxlad

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Sadly there's no way a route out of the station northwards and into Sussex Avenue (for parking traffic) would ever happen, and creating an access route to the southern end of Scotland Lane, while oodles cheaper, would never get past the locals. Also, I thought that was all Green Belt land; I thought was, in the 1980s, but the Uni has had new, taller buildings (on the site of old ones) so I guess not.

I'm certainly not suggesting a route into Sussex Avenue for either bus or cars! The road connection for buses could simply be an extension of what is being proposed, just merely extended towards the station adjacent to the rail line.

Or just what MarkyT has previously suggested that he has kindly referred to in his above comment.

Problem with using Horsforth Woodside is that the current plans for development don’t have many spaces set aside. This would requires trees to be felled.
If Horsforth Woodside did go ahead I would put the car parking on this 2 acre brownfield site, right next to where the station would go, unless of course it has now been built upon!

Horsforth Woodside.png

Its an ideal site for a multistory car park should they're be demand, which is highly likely subject to rail capacity!
 
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yoyothehobo

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I'm certainly not suggesting a route into Sussex Avenue for either bus or cars! The road connection for buses could simply be an extension of what is being proposed, just merely extended towards the station adjacent to the rail line.

Or just what MarkyT has previously suggested that he has kindly referred to in his above comment.


If Horsforth Woodside did go ahead I would put the car parking on this 2 acre brownfield site, right next to where the station would go, unless of course it has now been built upon!

View attachment 89077

Its an ideal site for a multistory car park should they're be demand, which is highly likely subject to rail capacity!

Multi storey car park with the top level leading directly to the platform!
 

YorksLad12

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I'm certainly not suggesting a route into Sussex Avenue for either bus or cars! The road connection for buses could simply be an extension of what is being proposed, just merely extended towards the station adjacent to the rail line.

Or just what MarkyT has previously suggested that he has kindly referred to in his above comment.

Yes... I think we agreed on that point, @Halifaxlad... neither of us is suggesting it, and it wouldn't happen anyway :)
 

Halifaxlad

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Yes... I think we agreed on that point, @Halifaxlad... neither of us is suggesting it, and it wouldn't happen anyway :)

Ah yes I see what you were saying now...

Probably should have gone to specsavers not scrivens. :lol:

Multi storey car park with the top level leading directly to the platform!

Absolutely if this site was chosen for a new station!
 
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Bigman

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What they really need to do is buy the wood yard next to Horsforth station, flatten it and put in a big car park and proper bus stops. A shuttle bus would be able to get to the airport in about 5-7 minutes. They would do better spending the money on this and also widening Scotland Lane to make it more easier for buses to use. If they did this, they A1 bus from Leeds could then be diverted through Horsforth and would reduce the bus journey time to Leeds substantially.
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Horsforth Woodside would be ideal for re-opening as it will provide far more parking places than Horsforth.

At Horsforth, a bay platform would ideally be constructed for the Leeds short workings to terminate.

In combination with re-openings to Otley and Ripon, I have had a go at designing a Taktplan for the Harrogate Line which the thread can be found at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...otley-ripon-york-clock-face-timetable.213398/
 

Halifaxlad

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What they really need to do is buy the wood yard next to Horsforth station, flatten it and put in a big car park and proper bus stops. A shuttle bus would be able to get to the airport in about 5-7 minutes. They would do better spending the money on this and also widening Scotland Lane to make it more easier for buses to use. If they did this, they A1 bus from Leeds could then be diverted through Horsforth and would reduce the bus journey time to Leeds substantially.

I was thinking something similar the other night, possibly Woodlands could be relocated to (Say to the site adjacent to Horsforth Woodside) then a small multistory car park could be built. Ideally it would be nice to relocate Woodlands somewhere nearby although suggesting sites are controversial as they're no brownfield sites left. To mitigate highway issues with Station Road that is already an issue, a one way system could be created with the exit via the new road connecting onto Scotland Lane.
Whilst this would be much cheaper than by separating the objectives between improving connectivity to the airport and creating a parkway to Leeds, a multi story at Horsforth wouldn't be able to be as nearly as big as one at Horsforth Woodside.

Regardless as to where the car parking is provided, if Horsforth was adopted to provide this shuttle link to the Airport, WYCA are going to want to upgrade it! I think someone in this thread or another has previously mentioned a footbridge is being considered for it, the track may also have to be lowered if the line is electrified in the future so this may be a perfect time to rebuild!

It also makes more sense improving the station facilities rather than trying to duplicate them and services for a station less than a mile North! I don't see the point in creating another Ticket Office which is unlikely to be used I can see the office at Horsforth closing otherwise as Northern aren't going to want to staff both. I don't imagine they're too keen at the prospect of staffing an additional one anyway.
 

skyhigh

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If Horsforth Woodside did go ahead I would put the car parking on this 2 acre brownfield site, right next to where the station would go, unless of course it has now been built upon!
Sadly this site is being built upon right as we speak.
 

Halifaxlad

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Sadly this site is being built upon right as we speak.

Thanks I wondered if it was, what is being built ?

Edit: I had a look at the planning and discovered houses. Well we never know, they may be using it as a compound for the time being whilst the rest of the site gets underway considering its handy right next to the highway.
 
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4-SUB 4732

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Isn’t Leeds Bradford pretty much dead in the water anyway?

Granted, Jet2 are doing alright but I do question the value of it sometimes. I know it’s on the ‘correct side’ of Leeds, making journeys from eastern Manchester just that bit more attractive; and yes it is on a rail line with a Metro frequency to two cities but that aside, it’s just a bit rubbish.

Post Covid, and with green tourism now on the agenda, as well as people staying home perhaps and with a general move away from holidays to the Costa del Crime, I’d expect to see less local flights. I’d also expect to see more consolidation to “mini hubs”, in order to optimise resources and transport planning.

Naturally Heathrow and Manchester are on that list; but I wouldn’t, as a Government minister, be thinking Leeds.
 

HST43257

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Isn’t Leeds Bradford pretty much dead in the water anyway?

Granted, Jet2 are doing alright but I do question the value of it sometimes. I know it’s on the ‘correct side’ of Leeds, making journeys from eastern Manchester just that bit more attractive; and yes it is on a rail line with a Metro frequency to two cities but that aside, it’s just a bit rubbish.

Post Covid, and with green tourism now on the agenda, as well as people staying home perhaps and with a general move away from holidays to the Costa del Crime, I’d expect to see less local flights. I’d also expect to see more consolidation to “mini hubs”, in order to optimise resources and transport planning.

Naturally Heathrow and Manchester are on that list; but I wouldn’t, as a Government minister, be thinking Leeds.
When HS2 and NPR come along, local flights will be needed even less. Local airports can be closed, with a limited number staying open for, mainly, international flights. No need for Liverpool and Leeds Bradford when NPR is built, just give Manchester and Newcastle better airports (upgraded a bit) with good rail connections and you’ve got a (probably) cheaper and more carbon efficient system.

We could make airports really worth it if there are less ones that are busier, with good rail connections.
 

Bald Rick

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When HS2 and NPR come along, local flights will be needed even less. Local airports can be closed, with a limited number staying open for, mainly, international flights.

What proportion of LBA flights are domestic?

(It’s go5 a bright future)
 

DB

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Whatever is done it needs to be direct from Leeds - so a train all the way there. If it's a train then a bus it's fairly pointless: just as well get a bus direct from Leeds station.
 

Bald Rick

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Whatever is done it needs to be direct from Leeds - so a train all the way there. If it's a train then a bus it's fairly pointless: just as well get a bus direct from Leeds station.

It works fine for Luton...
 

DB

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It works fine for Luton...

That's on a significant mainline so many peopke travelling to it will be using that anyway. In the case of Leeds, many would have to travel in to Leeds then change onto a Harrogate line train, then onto a bus.
 

geoffk

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I agree with post #5 - a shuttle bus from Apperley Bridge station, which has a big car park, is served by trains from both Leeds and Bradford, and the entire route would be on an A road. Transdev service A2 Bradford - Harrogate already serves both Apperley Bridge station and LBA once an hour, with a travel time of around 15 minutes.
 
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HST43257

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I agree with post #5 - a shuttle bus from Apperley Bridge station, which has a big car park, is served by trains from both Leeds and Bradford, and the entire route would be on an A road. Transdev service A2 Bradford - Harrogate already serves both Apperley Bridge station and LBA once an hour, with a travel time of around 15 minutes.
Could double the frequency to connect in with all Apperley Bridge services?
 

bluenoxid

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Could double the frequency to connect in with all Apperley Bridge services?

Leeds Bradford Airport Parkway could be served by extending the car park buses.

Apperley Bridge would be a full bus service. It’s not the best route and your options if something goes wrong are limited.
 

Bigman

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Apperley Bridge is only served by Leeds to Bradford Forster Square services, apart from the odd off peak services. This makes it next to useless if trying to get people to travel from Skipton and Keighley.
 

30907

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Apperley Bridge is only served by Leeds to Bradford Forster Square services, apart from the odd off peak services. This makes it next to useless if trying to get people to travel from Skipton and Keighley.
That could be changed if it became the Airport Interchange.

However, Keighley has an hourly bus (admittedly indirect) to LBA, Shipley a reasonably direct one and Bradford 2ph, so I'm not convinced that Apperley Bridge cuts it anyway, and it certainly won't do the P+R job intended.
 

Bigman

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There are some big advantages with Apperley Bridge. The station is already there, as is the car park and bus stand. The A2 bus already serves the station. The car park would probably need to be increased in size. The timetable/service patterns would need tinkering to provide some onward links without the need to change trains. Linking the hourly Doncaster-Leeds with the Leeds-Skipton comes to mind. Oh, and the bus changes next month mean that Keighley loses it's direct bus to the airport.
 
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