Possible rolling stock for Munich-Zurich EC services after electrification of Munich-Lindau

[Stephen Lee]

as we know the Bavarian Railway is gonna be electrified soon but I wondered are they still gonna use Loco-hauled stock with the Munich-Lindau traction being switched to Electric Locomotive like DB Class 101 or they are planning to use EMUs like EC250 or Pendolino instead?

 

[cactustwirly]

as we know the Bavarian Railway is gonna be electrified soon but I wondered are they still gonna use Loco-hauled stock with the Munich-Lindau traction being switched to Electric Locomotive like DB Class 101 or they are planning to use EMUs like EC250 or Pendolino instead?

I imagine a BR101 is the most likely tbh, or even a BR120 if we're really lucky!!

 

[87015]

No its planned to go to some Swiss tilting irrelevance.

 

[hexagon789]

ICE4? Or IC2 with 146 haulage?

 

[Stephen Lee]

ICE4? Or IC2 with 146 haulage?

IC2? There is already a delay on introduction in Stuttgart-Zurich Service and we have no idea when it will be introduced finally!!!

 

[Stephen Lee]

No its planned to go to some Swiss tilting irrelevance.

Swiss Tilting Irrelevance? Are you saying RABe501(Stadler EC250)?

 

[87015]

Swiss Tilting Irrelevance? Are you saying RABe501(Stadler EC250)?

No idea what type but some pendo or other tilting cart. Pretty sure not new some cast off tat from other routes.

 

[hexagon789]

IC2? There is already a delay on introduction in Stuttgart-Zurich Service and we have no idea when it will be introduced finally!!!

I'm not very up to date on the current situation with stock in Germany I'm afraid

 

[paul_munich]

It is going to be the ETR 610 (RABe 503).

 

[Gordon]

No idea what type but some pendo or other tilting cart. Pretty sure not new some cast off tat from other routes.

Likely to be 503 units (ETR610) displaced by 501 (Giruno) which are the newbuilds for the Gotthard base tunnel services.

.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Likely to be 503 units (ETR610) displaced by 501 (Giruno) which are the newbuilds for the Gotthard base tunnel services.

.

Also for the upcoming Ceneri Base Tunnel.
Btw i think after that ETR610 will focus on Simplon/Lotschberg routes as well as Munich-Zurich and will no longer run in Gotthard.....

 

[30907]

No its planned to go to some Swiss tilting irrelevance.

Tilt strikes me as entirely relevant for Munich-Lindau, otherwise you'd not improve significantly on a pair of 218s.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Go-Ahead has ordered Stadler Flirt 3 units for the regional services Munich-Memmingen-Lindau.
Due to start December 2021 when electrification is completed.
https://www.railwaygazette.com/trac.../go-ahead-signs-flirt-emu-order/47248.article

GERMANY: Go-Ahead has awarded Stadler a contract to supply 22 four-car Flirt 3 electric multiple-units for use on the E-Netz Allgäu services on the München – Memmingen – Lindau route which it is to operate on behalf of the Länder of Baden-Württemberg and Bayern from December 2021

 

[Austriantrain]

No its planned to go to some Swiss tilting irrelevance.

Never irrelevant in Switzerland, since they are better than anyone else in calculating how many seconds of time savings they need to achieve the timetable they seek. If tilt is the most economic way to do it, they will go for tilt.

Yes, it will be the RABe 503, since they will not be needed anymore on the Gotthard.

 

[Bald Rick]

I remember catching this train end to end in both 1991 and 1999, and being surprised both times to have a reasonably ancient diesel on the front though Germany.

 

[raetiamann]

Class 101/120 are unlikely to be used as there would need to be a pantograph for the narrower Swiss network would require fitting, which would mean a small dedicated fleet of locos. Almost certain to be Swiss EMUs and tilt would be a sensible option for the twisting line between Lindau and Buchloe.

 

[30907]

I remember catching this train end to end in both 1991 and 1999, and being surprised both times to have a reasonably ancient diesel on the front though Germany.

The same as are still being used, because DB didnt buy new diesels until very recently.

BTW the draft schedules have appeared (via Drehscheibe-Online) and throughout journey time is reduced from 4h45 to 4h00.

 

[blackfive460]

BTW the draft schedules have appeared (via Drehscheibe-Online) and throughout journey time is reduced from 4h45 to 4h00.

And when Lindau-Reutin opens you'll probably be able to shave another 30 minutes off that time by avoiding the reversal in Lindau Hbf.

 

[raetiamann]

And when Lindau-Reutin opens you'll probably be able to shave another 30 minutes off that time by avoiding the reversal in Lindau Hbf.

Last I heard both the Tourist Board and the Chamber of Commerce were fighting to keep the stop on the island, though you could understand why DB wants to use Reutin.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I haven't travelled the route, but as I understand it the electrified route between Buchloe and Lindau will be that via Memmingen, not the present main line via Kempten.
Memmingen-Hergatz (62km) and Memmingen-Buchloe (42km) are single track, whereas the route via Kempten is double track (as per the Schweers atlas), though maybe some upgrades on the Memmingen route are planned (I can see a major bridge near Hergatz has been replaced).
Today's through Zürich-München trains travel via Kempten.
Presumably the Kempten route will become a local line after the change.

Buchloe–Lindau railway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

However, this is not concerned with the Kaufbeuren–Kempten–Immenstadt line, but the alternative route via Memmingen and Kißlegg (Buchloe–Memmingen, Leutkirch–Memmingen, Württemberg Allgäu and Kißlegg–Hergatz lines). This means that the Bavarian Allgäu line of would only benefit by the electrification of the Geltendorf–Buchloe (26 kilometres) and the Hergatz–Lindau (23 kilometres) sections. This means that the current sparse international connections on the Allgäu line via Kempten will eventually be lost entirely. International long distance trains will run through a newly built station in Lindau-Reutin, avoiding the Lindau Hauptbahnhof, which is a terminal station, requiring reversals. The number of tracks of this station will then be reduced.

Presumably DB's ICE-T sets could also work the new route.
They started life on Stuttgart-Zürich services.

 

[Bald Rick]

I haven't travelled the route, but as I understand it the electrified route between Buchloe and Lindau will be that via Memmingen, not the present main line via Kempten.
Memmingen-Hergatz (62km) and Memmingen-Buchloe (42km) are single track, whereas the route via Kempten is double track (as per the Schweers atlas), though maybe some upgrades on the Memmingen route are planned (I can see a major bridge near Hergatz has been replaced).
Today's through Zürich-München trains travel via Kempten.
Presumably the Kempten route will become a local line after the change.

Buchloe–Lindau railway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Presumably DB's ICE-T sets could also work the new route.
They started life on Stuttgart-Zürich services.

Hmm. I’m fairly sure I went via Memmingen when I travelled on it.

 

[cactustwirly]

Class 101/120 are unlikely to be used as there would need to be a pantograph for the narrower Swiss network would require fitting, which would mean a small dedicated fleet of locos. Almost certain to be Swiss EMUs and tilt would be a sensible option for the twisting line between Lindau and Buchloe.

Obviously the Br101 would be swapped for a Swiss loco at Lindau where the train reverses anyway.
I'm sure there's a regular EC that makes its way to Interlaken hauled by a Br101 anyway

 

[duesselmartin]

Possibly the new Talgo EC sets? The 101 is soon life expired.

 

[cactustwirly]

Possibly the new Talgo EC sets? The 101 is soon Life expired.

Really? They're not that old surely? There's much older locos still in service

 

[duesselmartin]

The 120s are already endangered. The 101 having reliabiliy problems.
With the 111 and 143 going out, there is not that much in older locos left.
The 151 and 155 are not DB property anymore but leased back but are also en masse heading to the scrap yard.

 

[paul_munich]

Possibly the new Talgo EC sets? The 101 is soon life expired.

no, it is definitely the ETR 610, it has been confirmed by SBB and DB.
Do you maybe have a source about the 101 please, it is the working horse of the IC fleet, and I’m pretty sure it will be for the coming 10-20 years...

 

[EAD]

As Paul says, definitely ETR610s (RABe 503 «Astoro»). In case people want to understand more about the project then this 2019 brochure may be of use (in German). Reutin is meant to be ready for the December timetable too. Of course the plan is for trains to take 3h30 between Munich and Zurich, but as I understand it this now won't happen until 2021 with the initial timetable being around 4h.

The main reason is an issue with ETCS Baseline 3 and the need for a dynamic system change (A) to (CH) in St. Margrethen - this has been an issue in other roll-outs and there is a delay in getting this to work as it has to overlay with the relevant local signalling safety system. This won't be ready in time and Alstom predict 6-12 months of delay. This screws up the whole timetable, as until that is fixed you have to build in a full static system change in St. Margrethen rather than the planned 2 minute station stop with dynamic transition. The path is therefore conflicted at St. Gallen which in total gives you the extra 30 minutes journey all in. A good overview (along with the timetables) can be found on the ICE-Treff forum here.

 

[Gordon]

Never irrelevant in Switzerland, since they are better than anyone else in calculating how many seconds of time savings they need to achieve the timetable they seek. If tilt is the most economic way to do it, they will go for tilt.

Actually tilt can be irrelevant in Switzerland. When tilting EMUs replaced loco hauled on the Genève - Milano route the tilting trains provided a faster service on the Swiss section of the route, but not because of the tilt, just because they cut out some station stops!


.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The DB brochure linked above shows a speed profile for some of the route (Hergatz-Kisslegg), and tilt does make a significant difference.
The maximum line speed is 140km/h and tilting trains will be able to use this nearly all the way.

 

[30907]

Actually tilt can be irrelevant in Switzerland. When tilting EMUs replaced loco hauled on the Genève - Milano route the tilting trains provided a faster service on the Swiss section of the route, but not because of the tilt, just because they cut out some station stops!

But the Rhone Valley is rather the exception to the rule, and hardly any trains on that route tilt.