Possible route reopenings

[IanBanks-Jones]

The Npton to wboro line also hits the mml from the south, negating the advantages of a n-s link

 

[Waverley125]

I really think Thameslink would be much improved if extended from Bedford to Northampton and Corby, allowing the removal of stops south of Kettering from MML trains while maintaining frequency into London.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I think Bedford and Luton need more direct MML trains if anything, not a further decimation that the service has suffered (that occurred in the December 2008 timetable).

 

[JamesRowden]

After the problems experienced on the Brighton Mainline recently (due to there not being an alternative route south of East Croyden between the Hastings Line and the Dorking/Horsham Line) and after seeing a post regarding capacity issues at the Balcombe tunnel, I thought that maybe the lines that presently terminate on the way to coast could be extended/restored and upgraded to be a better alternative route for passengers who presently use the mainline but whose journeys do not start/finish on the mainline. And these routes could also be used as a diversionary route for mainline services during disruption and engineering works. I looked at expanding the lines that serve the majority Sussex and then realised that the links that I had come up with have all been in existence in the past. On the map black lines are represent national rail lines, green represent heritage lines and red represent closed lines. Below is a list of off-peak services that I have come up with to serve the network.

East Sussex Services
--------------------
3tph London - Hastings via Wadhurst (1 Fast, 1 Semi-fast, 1 Stopping)
1tph London - Brighton via Tunbridge Wells & Uckfield (Stopping)
1tph London - Ore via Oxted & Heathfield (Semi-fast)
2tph London - Eastbourne via Oxted & Heathfield (1 Fast [stops at Polegate], 1 Stopping)
1tph London - Brighton via Oxted & Uckfield (Stopping)
1tph London - Seaford via East Grinstead & Newick (stopping)
1tph London - Brighton via East Grinstead & Haywards Heath (stopping)
1tph London - Eastbourne via Gatwick Airport (Semi-fast)
11tph London - Brighton via Gatwick Airport (4 Fast, 4 Semi-fast, 3 Stopping)
1tph Brighton - Ashford (Semi-fast)
1tph Brighton - Ore (Stopping)
2tph Brighton - Eastbourne (1 Semi-fast, 1 Stopping)
1tph Brighton - Seaford (Stopping)
1tph Eastbourne - Ashford (Semi-fast as far as Hastings, Stopping beyond)
1tph Eastbourne - Hastings (Stopping)

(Eastbourne to be only served by services that terminate there rather than the present system of through services reversing)

A chord could be added (or it might already be in existance) at Dorking to allow a service to run along the route Reading-Guildford-Horsham-Brighton.
A London-Dorking-Horsham service could be extended to Bognor Regis via Worthing to improve local connections.

 

[cle]

I think Bedford and Luton need more direct MML trains if anything, not a further decimation that the service has suffered (that occurred in the December 2008 timetable).

I think both are true. Both towns need better MML services than stoppers and the Corby.

But equally I think the Corby stopper could eventually become part of Thameslink - an outer pattern using only 377s/the better of the new fleet if there are differences.

This should run to today's stopping patterns but then take over 2tph south of the river. No St Albans or West Hampstead required - they're well served enough. 1tph to Kettering and 1tph to Corby should be fine. Currently I would cut Corby services off peak and put in a 156 or similar to shuttle to Kettering for a few hours.

Another path desperately needs to be found for a Manchester service - Luton/Bedford, Leicester, Derby and then Stockport-Manchester as I think it has definite potential for many journey combinations especially with Luton having no Leicester or Derby trains any more.

 

[OxtedL]

I'm intrigued by your comments about the low season ticket fares. I didn't realize there was such a discrepancy with the main line. Wonder why that is the case - my first guess would be: Are Southern deliberately using differential fares to try to ease congestion on the main Brighton line? (If they are, that would seem to give a strong argument for building Uckfield-Lewes in terms of even greater potential for using fares to ease main line congestion.

As I recall, when Southern came in they adopted a flat fare season ticket policy on season tickets on the Uckfield branch. A season ticket from Edenbridge Stns to London costs precisely the same as from any station south of there. Worth a quick look here if you want to do some comparisons: http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/seasonticket/search

That said, I can't remember whether it was actually Southern or was around before that. Southern do appear to have adopted a radical approach to the Uckfield line, perhaps thinking that it was worth a shot since they were getting new stock. It also got a new Sunday service at around the same time, which seems to have reasonably healthy loadings.

Two further questions to satisfy my curiosity... Is it only season tickets that are so much cheaper on the Uckfield branch or are normal day tickets cheaper/mile too? And how does the Uckfield line compare with the East Grinstead line in that regard.

A season ticket between East Grinstead and London is cheaper than one from Edenbridge (I think, having just looked). Possibly because there is an alternative route useable from Edenbridge, or maybe because everything stops everywhere and parking in East Grinstead isn't always a happy affair.

Normal fares then, well, here's some off peak day returns:

East Croydon<>Uckfield £13.00 [Edenbridge<>ECR is £6.70, so no flat pricing here ]
London<> Uckfield £16.10

East Croydon<>Burgess Hill £12.50
London<>Burgess Hill £12.70 / £19.80
(FCC/Southern differential)
That's not necessarily a good example as competition on the Brighton line does strange things to the ticket pricing.

East Croydon<>Billingshurst £14.70
London<>Billingshurst £21

London<>Stonegate £20.70

I'll let you work out what the hell is going on, because I genuinely have no idea.

 

[A0wen]

I think Bedford and Luton need more direct MML trains if anything, not a further decimation that the service has suffered (that occurred in the December 2008 timetable).

I don't agree. EMT services are medium to long distance services yet are being used as London commuter services causing overcrowding. I think they should make Luton Airport Parkway the outer London railhead, then fast to Wellingborough.

Compare to Ecml or Wcml, EMT have too many stops too close to London

 

[Waverley125]

MML needs to call at Luton, Bedford, Market Harborough, Wellingborough and Kettering. Clearly, they can't all be fitted onto one service. I don't think you need to serve Luton Airport as from the south it's served, and from the north you can just change at Luton main.

I think if you integrate London-Corby into Thameslink (i.e. West Hampstead, St Albans, Luton Airport, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering, Corby)

you can then alternate an hourly service to all the other stations, so London-Derby and London-Nottingham stoppers would have calls at these i.e. Luton, Wellingborough, Market Harborough or Bedford, Kettering

With Market Harborough to get a stop on the Sheffield stoppers (i.e. Market Harborough, Leicester, Loughborough, EMP, Derby, Chesterfield)

of course the alternative would just be to 4-track the MML all the way to Leicester, and extend Thameslink there, giving half-hourly connections at Leicester, with calls only at Luton, Bedford and Kettering on services going north.

 

[Chrisgr31]

As regards pricing on the Uckfield line yes season ticket prices are a fixed price from everywhere beyond Edenbridge, apparently driven off the price from Redhill as Edenbridge has the choice of 2 stations one on the Uckfield line the other on Redhill-Tonbridge.

Prices are partly low as pre Southern and the new trains the service was truly awful, very unreliable on timings, and changing at Oxted on most trains. There had also been the Cowden crash which restricted services significantly too.

As a result I understand the prices on the Uckfield line were held pre Southern making them lower than other lines in the area. Now price rises are linked to RPI then they cant catch up with surrounding lines.

I also understand that whilst there may be people from the Brighton Mainline and indeed Tunbridge Wells Line catchment area who are driving to the Uckfield line to catch trains there are significantly greater number of people within the catchment area of the Uckfield line driving to the other lines. Something like 40% apparently. (Dont compare the price difference between Eridge and T Wells the 8 minute drive saves a fortune)

Day tickets possibly not as prone to people driving to other lines I assume?

 

[OliverS]

View attachment 11361
A chord could be added (or it might already be in existance) at Dorking to allow a service to run along the route Reading-Guildford-Horsham-Brighton.
A London-Dorking-Horsham service could be extended to Bognor Regis via Worthing to improve local connections.

I doubt there is room for a chord at Dorking. There used to be a S-E chord, i.e. Horsham-Redhill but there isn't room for that now, let alone anything else.

Build the Arundel East chord & you have some sort of diversionary route as you can route from Brighton-West Coastway-Horsham & then London via Three Bridges or Dorking. It wouldn't be fast and would probably require resignalling of the Arun Valley but it would be a relatively cheap & feasible alternative to the Brighton Main Line south of Three Bridges. No need to change the current timetable unless something goes wrong.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Couldnt figure out which thread to put this in, and I dont think it is worthy of its own thread but over the last few days one of the original signs at High Wycombe station has been uncovered. If you are on platform 2 at High Wycombe station instead of seeing the standard giant map of London and the South East, there is a very large and very old school HIGH WYCOMBE, JUNCTION FOR MARLOW AND MAIDENHEAD sign in its place. I dont know how long it will be there for though.

 

[route:oxford]

Couldnt figure out which thread to put this in, and I dont think it is worthy of its own thread but over the last few days one of the original signs at High Wycombe station has been uncovered. If you are on platform 2 at High Wycombe station instead of seeing the standard giant map of London and the South East, there is a very large and very old school HIGH WYCOMBE, JUNCTION FOR MARLOW AND MAIDENHEAD sign in its place. I dont know how long it will be there for though.

Sounds like it should be listed.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I'm sure it will be looked after. I just dont think it will remain where it is right now (on platform 2, right by the underpass if you know the station) as it could be misinterpreted. Perhaps outside the station, which has recently been remodelled, or in the underpass or somewhere would be the place to put it if they decide to keep it at the station. That or a donation to Buckinghamshire railway centre up at Quainton I guess.

 

[lancastrian]

That's true. I should imagine a new service from Colne to Manchester through Blackburn and Bolton would be quite well received.

However, the point I am trying to make is that trams offer different opportunities - bringing the trams into town centres for example, a much more frequent service or more stops.

The service to Colne is hourly, one could expect a tram to run every 15 minutes. If there will be two trains each way every hour running from Todmorden to Blackburn, then a frequent tram connects into these services far better than the current hourly service.

The route goes from Colne through Nelson into Burnley, there is potential for more stops giving more people easy access into the network. Perhaps the trams could run on-street into the centre of Colne and possibly Burnley.

Every time I read about this idea of replacing the heavy rail link from Rose Grove to Colne by Trams. I am always having to stop laughing. Have you actually driven through the various towns from Rose Grove to Colne.

I do on a regular basis and let me tell you that the hills in the centre of Burnley would preclude Trams through the centre of Burnley, plus the traffic is so heavy that it would slow the Trams down compared to the rail Route.

The various stations are relitively well sighted for the centres of Burnley, Brierfield, Nelson (the best) and Colne. All Trams would do would be to isolate these three towns and Burnley would only be really served from Manchester Road Station. As it has been said what is really needed is for the Colne siding to be redoubled and the line on to Skipton to be rebuilt double track and the whole line from Preston to Skipton to be electrified.

Over the last 4/5 years both the last and this current Government have been messing about with the Tram/Train projects. Always talking about evaluating various trials and alway putting some obstical in the way of it.

The system HAS BEEN PROVED in Germany, it has not only been trialled there but it is working there. but that is not good enough for our Pillock Politicans, they have to add all possible obsticals before it is tested, then all the garbage added makes the trial fail. IF Tram/Train is a viable option, then it need to be tried on a line that would prove it well. The Watford to St Albans line would be good, and it could be extended into the centres of both town at each end.

The East Lancashire Line needs to be taken from the backwater that the closure of the Colne to Skipton link in 1970 has caused and it need to be reinstated and electrified. The traffic that passes through Colne at this time is quite a blockage. It takes me often just as long to get through Colne as it does to get from Burnely to Colne on the M65.

With the constant rise in petrol prices, what is needed is reinstated railways not over expensive Motorways that will be totally redundent in about 30 years anyway.