Possoble re introduction of parcel carriage on scheduled passenger services

[Robert CROSS]

Hi,
Covid 19 has brought space on passenger trains and the possibility of filling such with alternative revenue earning.
The Post office has siezed the opportunity of huge increases in online/mail order, so is there scope for the re introduction of some form of Red Star?
Maybe even a whole carriage devoted to parcels and a courier system where handlers travel with the train and put down and pick up adapted trolleys at stops.

 

[SynthD]

Sounds high in manual labour. The trolley has to get from the platform to the local sorting office, which may not be all that local any more.

 

[30907]

Hi,
Covid 19 has brought space on passenger trains and the possibility of filling such with alternative revenue earning.
The Post office has siezed the opportunity of huge increases in online/mail order, so is there scope for the re introduction of some form of Red Star?
Maybe even a whole carriage devoted to parcels and a courier system where handlers travel with the train and put down and pick up adapted trolleys at stops.

Welcome to the forum.

I am not sure most routes have stock that can be adapted for easy loading and security. I think the approaches outlined here - converted well-adapted units running on key routes - are more promising.
https://www.railfreight.com/business/2020/08/20/new-style-rail-parcels-nearer-to-delivery/?gdpr=accept

I am playing with the idea of automated collection points at bigger stations and converted class 153 single cars attached to existing services, but that's limited by what 153s will couple to - not to mention station dwell times and other trivia. So I'm not serious, before anyone gets worried

Sounds high in manual labour. The trolley has to get from the platform to the local sorting office, which may not be all that local any more.

I think the OP was using Parcelforce as an example rather than suggesting collaborating with them? Red Star didn't AFAIK.

 

[PeterC]

Hi,
Covid 19 has brought space on passenger trains and the possibility of filling such with alternative revenue earning.
The Post office has siezed the opportunity of huge increases in online/mail order, so is there scope for the re introduction of some form of Red Star?
Maybe even a whole carriage devoted to parcels and a courier system where handlers travel with the train and put down and pick up adapted trolleys at stops.

Ignoring the economics of day to day operation converting any carriage with 1/3 2/3 doors to carry roll cages is a trivial piece of engineering. Fixing the electrics to operate the parcels' doors separately would be the difficult bit in your proposition.

As always the really difficult bit is the shore side handling, very few stations have their old parcels handling facilities intact. Recent proposals such as that by Orion involve very limited high volume flows with suitable terminii. I am still sceptical about their long term vaibility although I hope I am wrong.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Welcome to the forum.

I am not sure most routes have stock that can be adapted for easy loading and security. I think the approaches outlined here - converted well-adapted units running on key routes - are more promising.
https://www.railfreight.com/business/2020/08/20/new-style-rail-parcels-nearer-to-delivery/?gdpr=accept

I am playing with the idea of automated collection points at bigger stations and converted class 153 single cars attached to existing services, but that's limited by what 153s will couple to - not to mention station dwell times and other trivia. So I'm not serious, before anyone gets worried


I think the OP was using Parcelforce as an example rather than suggesting collaborating with them? Red Star didn't AFAIK.

Varamis already government supplier
Other enterprises have their eye on reviving the parcels and light goods business. Most ambitious of them is Doncaster based Varamis Rail. The company has been examining a number of options, all around utilising similarly off-lease passenger EMU stock. Varamis already expects to be operating as a Crown Commercial Service supplier before the end of 2020. Varamis say they will be moving medical and vital supplies around the UK for Public Health England from November.

This quote in that article is total rubbish. "Varamis Rail" (one guy with a tacky website and a company registered until recently to a small house in Sevenoaks, now at some serviced ex-railway offices in Doncaster available at £100 per month) registered an offer for the Crown Commercial Service's coronavirus recovery effort, claiming that they could run EMUs converted for parcels (which don't yet exist) to move medical supplies.

But that scheme was a complete free for all and this guy has used it for free publicity for his fantasy operation. I could have registered a company and put on that list that I could have developed and produced a million ventilators in my garage by May, and put it on my website but it would be equally unrealistic. They have no trains, no paths, no qualifications and no contracts. And as far as I know, coronavirus hasn't killed off lorries.

They do sell gift sets for £30 though, so a few of them will pay for his serviced office and a night in the pub once it reopens.

 

[43096]

They do sell gift sets for £30 though, so a few of them will pay for his serviced office and a night in the pub once it reopens.

Just what a start-up logistics operator should be doing as a priority - selling gift sets to train spotters.


They even suggest letting them know when you spot a Varamis train - might be in for a long wait.

 

[zwk500]

It's a nice idea, but Rail is about bulk transport, and parcels are generally not moved in bulk. In the living-with-COVID world, the additional complexity of having to ship everything from the stations to home addresses means it's a non-starter. Had it survived, the Doddle parcel pick-up service could have provided some form of infrastructure for a limited express parcels service. It might have been feasible for trains with a 2nd person already on board to have a secure compartment where pre-booked packages could be stored. At stations Doddle staff would be waiting to meet the pre-determined trains, and by offering the station pick-up point as a general service for all Click & Collect it might have been able to offer commuters a useful option to pick up items on their way home. But with COVID it would have died anyway.

In the post-COVID world, we are likely to see home-working remain a substantial part of many people's employment. So waiting in for a delivery driver isn't as inconvenient as it used to be (companies are being more flexible), and people aren't passing through the station every day like they used to. With the rise in orders, deliveries can be allocated in more optimal patterns to allow efficient drop off, so the benefit to the vendor is less. Parcels & mail have a place on trains, which already operate for Royal Mail: dedicated, fast, bulk flows.

On having dedicated staff travelling with the train I think the fact that the railway needs to reduce it's costs to survive post-COVID would prevent that. Also if you use existing stock you'll need ramps on board for your trolleys to get on and off. Dedicated postal platforms are higher than standard (look at Stafford for an example) and have ramps stored on the platform edge for loading/unloading the trolleys.

There was a (theoretical) chance of late-night Intercity trains carrying next-day packages at a premium. But I think the AT300 derived trains now (or soon to be) dominant on the likely routes don't have a secure space, and the issue of shore handling would still need sorting out. The problems could be overcome in engineering terms, no doubt, but the financial and operational issues are far harder to resolve.

 

[popeter45]

if you where to increase mail traffic i would make far more sense to so dedicated trains like what is done with the 325's
e.g. one route i would potentially suggest is an overnight Stanstead to barking for UPS/DPD etc as a lot of there parcels go between each of them so makes sense to use rail instead of dozens of lorries

 

[py_megapixel]

"Varamis Rail" (one guy with a tacky website)

"Tacky" doesn't even come close to doing it justice...

Why is their logo in the navigation bar the wordmark of the Rail Safety and Standards Board? Do they really have permission to use that? I highly doubt it.

Also, there's plenty of wrongly scaled images, including some clearly taken from HS2 publicity (which, again, I highly doubt they have permission to use).

 

[Royston Vasey]

"Tacky" doesn't even come close to doing it justice...

Why is their logo in the navigation bar the wordmark of the Rail Safety and Standards Board? Do they really have permission to use that? I highly doubt it.

Also, there's plenty of wrongly scaled images, including some clearly taken from HS2 publicity (which, again, I highly doubt they have permission to use).

They are apparently members of the RSSB, I checked it out... whether it costs or means anything i have no idea...

He was a GTR driver at least until recently. Oh and he just made his 22 year old daughter a company director.

So the whole operation just oozes professionalism

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Hi,
Covid 19 has brought space on passenger trains and the possibility of filling such with alternative revenue earning.
The Post office has siezed the opportunity of huge increases in online/mail order, so is there scope for the re introduction of some form of Red Star?
Maybe even a whole carriage devoted to parcels and a courier system where handlers travel with the train and put down and pick up adapted trolleys at stops.

Welcome to the forum. Great first post.

 

[zwk500]

if you where to increase mail traffic i would make far more sense to so dedicated trains like what is done with the 325's
e.g. one route i would potentially suggest is an overnight Stanstead to barking for UPS/DPD etc as a lot of there parcels go between each of them so makes sense to use rail instead of dozens of lorries

100% agree with dedicated trains. The overall flow from Stanstead may be large enough, but air freight is usually too time-sensitive to wait for the train to roll around once per day. Also Stanstead to London isn't very far - the lorry can probably make multiple round trips within the driver's tacho hours. East Midlands airport, on the other hand is already a massive cargo hub, has substantial railfreight facilities, and is centrally located both geographically and on the railway network. It might be viable to run dedicated flows from East Mids to/from Glasgow, Newcastle, Bristol/Cardiff and London.

 

[py_megapixel]

They are apparently members of the RSSB, I checked it out... whether it costs or means anything i have no idea...

Neither do I. However, I highly doubt that being an RSSB member gives them permission to use the RSSB logo as their own logo on their promotional materials...

 

[Irascible]

As always the really difficult bit is the shore side handling, very few stations have their old parcels handling facilities intact. Recent proposals such as that by Orion involve very limited high volume flows with suitable terminii. I am still sceptical about their long term vaibility although I hope I am wrong.

Ironically with the reduction of platforms at most stations you'd drop a container off, there might not actually be that much work wheeling something off the platform to a nearby van... I don't think anyone's suggesting sorting parcels at the station really, you could pre-sort containers & stick a digital manifest on them & they go straight out the train door to local delivery complete with a preplanned route. Would need an investment in ramps, perhaps. I think it'd only work for stock with central doors where you could remove the seats out of one or two sections, trying to manhandle a parcels container through a vestibule does not sound a great idea - so that limits the routes a fair bit.

Would require a rethink of the logistics network so seems a bit unlikely. Long-haul dedicated replacements for aircraft might fit a bit better.