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Post HST Highland Mainline Timetable?

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Bletchleyite

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Mod Note: Posts #1 - #39 originally from this thread.


I can't see much justification for not just stopping everything everywhere on the lines north of Edinburgh/Glasgow given the low frequencies. If given stations don't justify that, they probably don't justify existing at all.
 
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Clansman

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I can't see much justification for not just stopping everything everywhere on the lines north of Edinburgh/Glasgow given the low frequencies. If given stations don't justify that, they probably don't justify existing at all.

Tempted to take the bait, but I'm not going to :)
 

Clansman

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I imagine stations between Glasgow to Aberdeen will receive a similar Intercity frequency that Kirkcaldy currently receives between Edinburgh and Dundee/Aberdeen. In other words, stations such as Carnoustie, Arbroath Montrose, Laurencekirk, Stonehaven and Portlethen will have local services to compensate, and the odd Intercity service call throughout the day.
 

Clansman

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Skip stopping does kill intermediate journey opportunities, though, particularly with low frequencies.

True, but we're not exactly starved for more station calls when the 2018 timetable is introduced. The currently hourly Glasgow to Aberdeen frequency will remain, and new hourly local services serving stations in between (Glasgow QS to Arbroath, Montrose to Inverurie) will compensate for the omission of these stations on Intercity routes where stations such as Montrose and Stonehaven are regularly called at.
 

Failed Unit

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True, but we're not exactly starved for more station calls when the 2018 timetable is introduced. The currently hourly Glasgow to Aberdeen frequency will remain, and new hourly local services serving stations in between (Glasgow QS to Arbroath, Montrose to Inverurie) will compensate for the omission of these stations on Intercity routes where stations such as Montrose and Stonehaven are regularly called at.

Yep. We saw this on the Ecml. Journeys between Newark and Retford / Grantham were nearly impossible by rail.

Dalwinnie passengers may want to use the train to get to Aviemore. (Picking 2 stations at random. No insider information to if this journey will be possible or not)
 

Clansman

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Yep. We saw this on the Ecml. Journeys between Newark and Retford / Grantham were nearly impossible by rail.

Dalwhinnie passengers may want to use the train to get to Aviemore. (Picking 2 stations at random. No insider information to if this journey will be possible or not)

I don't see what the uproar is about. The only stations in question are Blair Atholl, Dalwhinnie and Newtonmore. The latter two don't even have usage above 10,000 p/a - Dalwhinnie has been in decline for years, with usage figures showing just ~2500 last year.

Given services will be hourly on that line anyway, there's no reason why Dalwhinnie and Newtonmore should benefit from extra services when usage is as scarce as it is with the current service frequency. There was even a study conducted into whether Newtonmore should close, given the close proximity and better bus frequency to neighbouring Kingussie.
 

BRX

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An outrageously radical approach to public transport I know, but how about taking low usage as a prompt to improve the service from that station instead of an excuse to close it.

Never mind, all the money poured into improving the A9 will mean that car owners can care even less about the quality of the rail service and everyone else will just have to make do.
 

Clansman

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An outrageously radical approach to public transport I know, but how about taking low usage as a prompt to improve the service from that station instead of an excuse to close it.

Never mind, all the money poured into improving the A9 will mean that car owners can care even less about the quality of the rail service and everyone else will just have to make do.

How do you improve the patronage of a station which has virtually nothing around it?

It's a different scenario to what was done to Broughty Ferry and Monifieth, for example. Dalwhinnie is effectively just a Highland Breich. It shouldn't close, but it wouldn't exactly suffer being omitted from a few services each day. At the very least, making it a request stop wouldn't be a terrible idea, as it keeps the links to the station open, whilst allowing services to pass through the majority of the time.
 
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Failed Unit

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How do you improve the patronage of a station which has virtually nothing around it?

It's a different scenario to what was done to Broughty Ferry and Monifieth, for example. Dalwhinnie is effectively just a Highland Breich. Rather than close, at the very least it should be made a request stop.

Ironically it gets a sleeper stop. Currently times are good for a visit to the distillery, although i am sure most people use coach tours for that.

See the conflict at smaller stations many times. Swinderby in Lincolnshire has an extremely frequent service consider most trains i use that stop there no-one ever gets on or off. Sounds the same here the majority get a slower journey because of a smaller station.
 

47271

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I'll be okay in Kingussie (I think) but the fuss is in Dunkeld, a far busier call than any of the others mentioned here, fourth only after Aviemore, Pitlochry and Kingussie. Approx 35k entries and exits per year and growing all the time, and some very vociferous and articulate regular users...
 

Clansman

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I'll be okay in Kingussie (I think) but the fuss is in Dunkeld, a far busier call than any of the others mentioned here, fourth only after Aviemore, Pitlochry and Kingussie. Approx 35k entries and exits per year and growing all the time, and some very vociferous and articulate regular users...

I can see the case for Dunkeld, definitely. The station would benefit massively from having its platforms rebuilt, and service frequencies can't really get any better unless there is a surge in demand for local residents wanting better links to Inverness.

No chance Kingussie will be omitted.
 

BRX

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How do you improve the patronage of a station which has virtually nothing around it?

It's a different scenario to what was done to Broughty Ferry and Monifieth, for example. Dalwhinnie is effectively just a Highland Breich. It shouldn't close, but it wouldn't exactly suffer being omitted from a few services each day. At the very least, making it a request stop wouldn't be a terrible idea, as it keeps the links to the station open, whilst allowing services to pass through the majority of the time.

The fact that it has no significant settlement immediately nearby doesn't mean it has "virtually nothing around it".

I'm not an expert on Dalwhinnie. But I don't think you can say there are no opportunities to improve patronage. Some things that come to mind that are at least worth thinking about - it's in a national park with walking and biking opportunities straight out of the station. It's got the tourist attraction of the distillery next door. The current timetable sees 3 or 4 hours between trains. A service with that frequency is really only any use to people making longer journeys - maybe folk who live 15 mins drive away would use it when they are making journeys south or perhaps train times might happen to work for a day trip to Inverness. But that kind of service is pretty useless for - say - someone who lives in Inverness and might fancy a day out mountain biking, or an ascent of Ben Alder. You are committed to getting back to the station for a particular service - if you miss it, you might have to wait 4 hours. If the weather closes in you might turn back early but not early enough to get the service previous to the one you planned. An hourly service changes that scenario completely. Likewise - would tourists consider stopping for a visit to the Distillery, on their way from Edinburgh to Inverness by train? Unlikely at the moment for the same sorts of reasons, and again, something that would be different with an hourly service.

If patronage has been in decline for some time - who was using it before? Maybe changes in the area mean that demand has genuinely disappeared. But I'd always want to see what came first - a reduction in service, or a reduction in (apparent) demand.

As a principle, I think we should always be resisting any attempts to reduce services or close stations, because the history of our railways is that so much has been lost, that would be so useful today, because services and routes were given up based on short term or downright dodgy analysis. Once it's gone it's gone, generally. A closed Dalwhinnie station would probably never reopen.

No objection to the idea of a request stop. In fact I'd see a service where all trains were requests stops as better than the current one where a very few trains stop and the rest whizz through.

By the way I'm always curious about how request stops affect timings. Is it the case that you bank on the train only having to stop at one or two of a string of request stops, and then work out your timings on a kind of expected average over the whole lot? In other words, should it happen that the train has to stop at them all, it would be behind schedule?
 
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edwin_m

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By the way I'm always curious about how request stops affect timings. Is it the case that you bank on the train only having to stop at one or two of a string of request stops, and then work out your timings on a kind of expected average over the whole lot? In other words, should it happen that the train has to stop at them all, it would be behind schedule?
Can't speak specifically for Dalwhinnie but I did some timings on the Heart of Wales a few years ago and it appears the request stops there are timed approximately for 30s dwell time. If the train actually stopped it invariably took longer so the train would be a bit late if more than about half the stops were called at. However more time was allowed for token exchange stops and those where a stop was mandatory for level crossing purposes, along with big dollops of time everywhere it was scheduled to pass another train.

And therein lies the problem - with single lines a delay in one direction will be transmitted to trains going the other way, unless the schedules are heavily padded.
 

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The line South of Dalwhinnie is doubled for a few miles, so the impact would be minimal in that direction. And Kingussie is only a few miles North where it's double track also, so as long as there are good margins between crossovers either at Dalwhinnie and Kingussie, request stopping wouldn't have a massive impact.
 

InOban

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The line South of Dalwhinnie is doubled for a few miles, so the impact would be minimal in that direction. And Kingussie is only a few miles North where it's double track also, so as long as there are good margins between crossovers either at Dalwhinnie and Kingussie, request stopping wouldn't have a massive impact.

It's double the whole way to Blair Atholl.

Dalwhinnie is, I suspect mainly used by the landed gentry accessing their estates (Monarch of the Glen was shot nearby). This may explain why the sleeper calls.

Timetabling a more frequent service so that they always meet at passing loops is going to be tricky.
 

Class 170101

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A timetable with an equivalent number of deopartures to an hourly timetable is possible but not to a standard hour with cuerrent infrastructure.
 

47271

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Nothing will be done to Dunkeld station until they decide what they're doing with the A9 through Birnam.

The locals want to go to Edinburgh or Glasgow and back for the day, and anything that reduces their scope to do that within the new timetable will cause uproar. Their interest in travel to Inverness is pretty limited I believe.
 

JohnR

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I imagine stations between Glasgow to Aberdeen will receive a similar Intercity frequency that Kirkcaldy currently receives between Edinburgh and Dundee/Aberdeen. In other words, stations such as Carnoustie, Arbroath Montrose, Laurencekirk, Stonehaven and Portlethen will have local services to compensate, and the odd Intercity service call throughout the day.

Thats all very well, except the proposed local services are a) hourly, as opposed to 2tph at present and b) break at Arbroath/Montrose, meaning there are no locals going south of Montrose or north of Arbroath. So if you are in Montrose or Stonehaven, and wish to go to Arbroath or Dundee, you wont be able to.
 

edwin_m

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The line South of Dalwhinnie is doubled for a few miles, so the impact would be minimal in that direction. And Kingussie is only a few miles North where it's double track also, so as long as there are good margins between crossovers either at Dalwhinnie and Kingussie, request stopping wouldn't have a massive impact.

The reliability issue still exists if the trains in question pass other trains on short loops anywhere later in their journeys, even if not immediately after the request stop.
 

Highland37

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The line needs to be dualled. Rail is very poor at making the case for investment relative to the road lobby.

Have a look at the A9 dualling fly through vidoes. They really bring home the scale of the project and how much of a second class cousin the railway will be when it is finished.

Scotrail have finally answered my questions about bike spaces - they say nothing is confirmed. Read "we don't want to tell you" for that.
 

47271

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Double track sections are:
Perth to Stanley - 7 miles
Blair Atholl to Dalwhinnie - 23 miles
Culloden to Inverness - 7 miles
 

JohnR

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The line needs to be dualled. Rail is very poor at making the case for investment relative to the road lobby.

Have a look at the A9 dualling fly through vidoes. They really bring home the scale of the project and how much of a second class cousin the railway will be when it is finished.

Scotrail have finally answered my questions about bike spaces - they say nothing is confirmed. Read "we don't want to tell you" for that.

On the plus side, it means that we need to keep up the pressure.
 

47271

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There are growing rumours locally on Speyside that Kingussie WILL lose HST calls and that it's only Aviemore and Pitlochry that'll get the full complement.

This has been corroborated to me today via the even more alarmed residents of Dunkeld who think that the current 0650 Inverness-Edinburgh or its equivalent will cease to make its 0830 call, and so we could lose our 0738.

Draft timetables are being demanded from Transport Scotland and politicians, but this one needs to be watched very closely if it's the way they think that they're going to speed up services. Noone mentioned that intermediate stations could go down the pan with no alternative.

Half the time at the moment 'non stop' trains are a joke anyway - they end up waiting in a loop for a crossing train with their doors shut.

I'd appreciate it if everyone on this thread started to get on the case with this one, it might be nothing, but the stories have been breaking out at opposite ends of the line today.

If anyone from Scotrail or TS is reading this, I'd strongly advise quick public communication with local people, and not just the usual Community Council talking shops, there's a risk of it blowing up.
 

Clansman

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There are growing rumours locally on Speyside that Kingussie WILL lose HST calls and that it's only Aviemore and Pitlochry that'll get the full complement.

This has been corroborated to me today via the even more alarmed residents of Dunkeld who think that the current 0650 Inverness-Edinburgh or its equivalent will cease to make its 0830 call, and so we could lose our 0738.

Draft timetables are being demanded from Transport Scotland and politicians, but this one needs to be watched very closely if it's the way they think that they're going to speed up services. Noone mentioned that intermediate stations could go down the pan with no alternative.

Half the time at the moment 'non stop' trains are a joke anyway - they end up waiting in a loop for a crossing train with their doors shut.

I'd appreciate it if everyone on this thread started to get on the case with this one, it might be nothing, but the stories have been breaking out at opposite ends of the line today.

If anyone from Scotrail or TS is reading this, I'd strongly advise quick public communication with local people, and not just the usual Community Council talking shops, there's a risk of it blowing up.

I've been chasing this up also, from people I know who work for ScotRail.

A lot of them are linking the rumours to Abellio's commitment to reducing journey times from Inverness to Edinburgh to 3 hours - of which they initially laughed at when hearing about it. But, cut out Kingussie (aswell as Dunkeld and those in Fife), and you can get a good powerful run on the double section from Blair Atholl and on the straight from Newtonmore and Kingussie. It's only 15 minutes on the bus to Aviemore also, so it has sufficient transport links as it is, one might say.

How ScotRail would work around the single sections without rejigging everything is beyond me.

So, logic would say that the Edinburgh services would take the hit, and with the extra services coming into force next year, ScotRail would most likely be able to get away with omitting Kingussie on the new Edinburgh services, and allow passengers to change at Perth on the Glasgow services (which already connect to the Perth-Edinburghs).

It makes sense, to be honest in some aspects, whether it's reality is another thing. Definitely an issue to keep close tabs on.
 

Highland37

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I don't think missing out Kingussie makes any sense at all. The point of the railway is to transport people from A to B and it will not be doing that.

It's 20 minutes on the bus, not 15, and the buses do not interface with the railway. They are about every two hours and very unreliable. It doesn't make sense at all.

Although I may have misunderstood you. Are we talking about missing out Kingussie from the *additional* services or to reduce the number of trains calling there overall?

Where are these rumours coming from?
 
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