Potential alternative services during King's Cross remodelling in 2020

[Failed Unit]

Moderator note: split from King's Cross Remodelling - January to March 2020 (infrastructure discussion)

I guess Thameslink will be in full operation by then. (But my fear is that they will find it unworkable and the Cambridge - Maidstone will never be a through service). So the impact on local traffic will not be as bad. However long distance will be a challenge to put it nicely. Hopefully some kind of arrangement can be made to use St Pancras and have a service doing say. London —> Sheffield —> Leeds and York using some of the HSTs that east coast will have given up. (With 3 month extension to DDA)

 

[daikilo]

I would imagine this will have a significant impact on operators, particularly VTEC, and could be one of the reasons for them wanting to renegotiate.

 

[59CosG95]

I guess Thameslink will be in full operation by then. (But my fear is that they will find it unworkable and the Cambridge - Maidstone will never be a through service). So the impact on local traffic will not be as bad. However long distance will be a challenge to put it nicely. Hopefully some kind of arrangement can be made to use St Pancras and have a service doing say. London —> Sheffield —> Leeds and York using some of the HSTs that east coast will have given up. (With 3 month extension to DDA)

Given the length of the blockade (2 months), I'd expect more Greater Anglia services terminating at Cambridge to be extended through the fens, with GN's P'boro services terminating at Finsbury Park instead. Liverpool Street being served by GN could be a possibility, but that does seem to hand the short straw to the stations between Cambridge & Hitchin.
Long-distance services may well terminate at King's Cross or Finsbury Park, depending on the service/operator; I suspect GC and HT will be forced to use FPK, while half of VTEC's trains will use the Cross (such as the Anglo-Scottish ones).
And regarding the use of St. Pancras...well, good luck trying to get more space in P1-4! I'm sure EMT wouldn't be too happy about VTEC trying to pinch their paths (if that's what was being implied). An extension of more of their Sheffield services to Leeds/York wouldn't be a bad idea though, given that their HST fleet and the 222s are permitted to run that far.

I would imagine this will have a significant impact on operatores, particularly VTEC, and could be one of the reasons for them wanting to renegotiate.

Indeed it will, shutting down half of the UK's 9th busiest station won't be a mean feat by any stretch!

 

[Agent_Squash]

Wouldn't it be easier to run Anglo Scottish using direct VTWC services using Voyagers, since the timing is actually quicker anyway via the Trent Valley?

 

[59CosG95]

Wouldn't it be easier to run Anglo Scottish using direct VTWC services using Voyagers, since the timing is actually quicker anyway via the Trent Valley?

All well and good if you want to get from London to the Central Belt quickly, but I think passengers wanting to get to the north-east would feel short-changed!
Not entirely sure how Voyagers come into the equation, unless you're proposing a Euston-Aberdeen 10-car "Northern Lights" service...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Wouldn't it be easier to run Anglo Scottish using direct VTWC services using Voyagers, since the timing is actually quicker anyway via the Trent Valley?

Not sure when Euston loses some platforms for HS2, which won't help.
There ought to be Azumas running around by then which could work on the WCML but the route is not planned to be cleared for IEPs (south of Crewe).
There's no spare VT stock, 390 or 221.
The WCML has run non-stop Euston-Edinburgh services in the past, eg during the Penmanshiel Tunnel work, and more recently during the ash cloud period.

 

[Agent_Squash]

All well and good if you want to get from London to the Central Belt quickly, but I think passengers wanting to get to the north-east would feel short-changed!
Not entirely sure how Voyagers come into the equation, unless you're proposing a Euston-Aberdeen 10-car "Northern Lights" service...

Super Voyagers (at least the ones VT has) can operate the EPS speeds so that the journey time would be achievable. Then terminate all VTEC services at Newcastle with XC/TPE services filling the gap, with London to Edinburgh passengers using the Euston service.

Obviously if the stock was available.

 

[59CosG95]

Super Voyagers (at least the ones VT has) can operate the EPS speeds so that the journey time would be achievable. Then terminate all VTEC services at Newcastle with XC/TPE services filling the gap, with London to Edinburgh passengers using the Euston service.

Obviously if the stock was available.

4.5 hours on a Voyager is a punishment I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy; but that, and the fact that Voyagers have the same speed clearances as a Pendolino are neither here nor there.

I think an adjustment of termination locations to somewhere further up the ECML, and additional stops on faster services would be easiest.
To summarise:

• Northern City Lines (e.g. trains to Moorgate) would remain unchanged.
• Thameslink services would handle most of the GN slow traffic that they're planned to do with the new timetable, assuming the Slow Lines remain unchanged across Holloway Flyover, through Copenhagen Tunnel, and into the Core.
• GN services to King's Lynn would probably be cut back to Finsbury Park, and GA services via West Anglia would probably operate as 10 or 12-car services (assuming the new Aventras are in traffic).
• VTEC services may probably still use King's Cross, but will probably stop at additional key stations (e.g. Stevenage, P'boro) to compensate for the GN losses. Some may terminate at FPK.

It is still far too early to call yet, at least as far as the service rerouting is concerned.

 

[InOban]

The period after New Year tends to be quiet for both business and leisure travel - that's why you often see special offers at that time. I would start by reducing the frequency; hourly from Edinburgh should be enough.

 

[hwl]

Will a 5-car IEP fit into the suburban platforms?

With Thameslink in full swing five or six platforms (out of 11) might not be too badly overloaded.

With a good 30m to spare.

Presumably it will need a good number of 9 car IEPs in service for extra seats and quicker turnaround times with electronic reservations rather than paper ones? Thus enabling a few of the York extras to be cut back for the duration.
I suspect GN would still operate the King Lynn services even if a Cambridge - King Lynn shuttle as they have the stock and trained drivers and GA aren't likely to have either spare and the stock would be best concentrated on Cambridge - Liverpool Street/

 

[takno]

The period after New Year tends to be quiet for both business and leisure travel - that's why you often see special offers at that time. I would start by reducing the frequency; hourly from Edinburgh should be enough.

When does that start? The journeys I've done in both directions this week were rammed

 

[MML]

An extension of more of their Sheffield services to Leeds/York wouldn't be a bad idea though, given that their HST fleet and the 222s are permitted to run that far.

Indeed if additional HST stock returned from VTEC can be put to use allowing increasing Meridian stock workings to Leeds and York.
I travelled to Manchester a number of times during the 'Operation Princess' service from St Pancras to Piccadilly, a journey I have not repeated since a commute across to the WCML has once again become necessary. Too much focus is often given to the end to end destinations (London - Manchester), whereas travel from any intermediate station from Luton northwards would be better served by EMT. Leicester to York, Bedford to Manchester, Luton to Leeds are all untapped flows of traffic.

 

[gavin]

I guess some VTEC or whoever has the contract then will terminate some services at Finsbury Park during the closure

 

[greatkingrat]

Where are all these trains supposed to terminate at Finsbury Park, bearing in mind there will still be through services running to Moorgate, Thameslink and some to King's Cross?

I don't expect any GN services to terminate at Finsbury Park. Peterborough/Cambridge will have Thameslink services, while King's Lynn will either be a shuttle to Cambridge, or run through trains all day to Liverpool Street.

 

[Kieran1990]

I’d imagine during the blockade half of KGX would remain open.
Potentially GN would be allowed 1x Cambridge p/h. Maybe even fast 12 car- KGX- Peterborough as crowd busters to connect in with Intercity services
The rest of the GN would be provided via Thameslink.
VTEC/ Partnership I’d imagine an 1xp/h KGX-EDINBURGH
1x KGX-LDS
1x KHX- YRK ( all stops from Peterbough)
VT would probably operate an hourly LDS-Peterborough & an hourly Peterborough- Newcastle
Open Access-
GC would probably combine there two routes into one train that splits at Doncaster now they are all Class 180 operated
First Hull Trains probably use St Pan again as they have in recent years.

I doubt Finsbury Pk will be used again as a terminus after the Christmas fiasco a few years ago.

But all the above is just pure guess work.... who know what will Work into and out of the X during the Works

 

[Class 170101]

I don't expect any GN services to terminate at Finsbury Park. Peterborough/Cambridge will have Thameslink services, while King's Lynn will either be a shuttle to Cambridge, or run through trains all day to Liverpool Street.

You assume that GA will agree to GN operating to Liverpool Street as there aren't any spare peak time paths on WA. Class 387s aren't route cleared (not that it should be difficult mind) south of Shepreth Branch Jn.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I’d imagine during the blockade half of KGX would remain open.

Yes, that is the plan.

 

[InOban]

When does that start? The journeys I've done in both directions this week were rammed

It's easier to see on airline schedules. A lot of routes from the regions to European cities are either suspended or reduced in frequency from last weekend for the next 4,8, or even 12weeks, right up to the clock change.

 

[A0wen]

I’d imagine during the blockade half of KGX would remain open.
Potentially GN would be allowed 1x Cambridge p/h. Maybe even fast 12 car- KGX- Peterborough as crowd busters to connect in with Intercity services
The rest of the GN would be provided via Thameslink.
VTEC/ Partnership I’d imagine an 1xp/h KGX-EDINBURGH
1x KGX-LDS
1x KHX- YRK ( all stops from Peterbough)
VT would probably operate an hourly LDS-Peterborough & an hourly Peterborough- Newcastle
Open Access-
GC would probably combine there two routes into one train that splits at Doncaster now they are all Class 180 operated
First Hull Trains probably use St Pan again as they have in recent years.

I doubt Finsbury Pk will be used again as a terminus after the Christmas fiasco a few years ago.

But all the above is just pure guess work.... who know what will Work into and out of the X during the Works

Unlikely Hull Trains will get into St P - there's no capacity there and it's a long diversion to achieve.

More likely would be to terminate Hull Trains and GC at either Peterboro or Cambridge - onward connection by GTR.

The Christmas problem at FP was that they tried to terminate everything there - which was never going to work, so a smaller number terminating there might work BUT you need to turn the trains around and send them back out, which is where the fun starts.

I don't believe running to Liverpool St (touted by someone else) is even vaguely likely - capacity on the NLL from Canonbury will see to that.

 

[Fred26]

One of the biggest problems of terminating at Finsbury Park was the lack of disabled access at the station. Hopefully by the time of this blockade all platforms will be lift accessable there.
Last time FCC terminated trains at Finsbury Park and Stevenage. There were services from Letchworth and Royston to Moorgate. After FPK they called Highbury & Islington, Old Street and Moorgate. As the NCL isn't disabled friendly either, plenty of problems were caused with wheelchairs turning up at those stations expecting to travel.
The whole thing was a mess.
I hope next time this happens that the whole thing is better planned.
VTEC/HT/GC should terminate at Peterborough, Cambridge or Stevenage. Even Welwyn Garden City could be used for 5-car services. GN services should be all that goes to London, in my opinion.

 

[greatkingrat]

I don't believe running to Liverpool St (touted by someone else) is even vaguely likely - capacity on the NLL from Canonbury will see to that.

I wasn't suggesting trains would run to Liverpool Street via the NLL, just that the existing Liverpool Street - Cambridge trains might be extended to King's Lynn (as some already are in the peaks).

 

[Ibex]

The period after New Year tends to be quiet for both business and leisure travel - that's why you often see special offers at that time. I would start by reducing the frequency; hourly from Edinburgh should be enough.

I've heard a few people say this recently! I travelled from Northallerton to Kings Cross on New Years Day this year and it was busy all the way with people standing from York, and that was a train that had originated at Newcastle and not Edinburgh! (Not that I don't believe you about the time period being quieter of course!).

 

[Ianno87]

Where are all these trains supposed to terminate at Finsbury Park, bearing in mind there will still be through services running to Moorgate, Thameslink and some to King's Cross?

I don't expect any GN services to terminate at Finsbury Park. Peterborough/Cambridge will have Thameslink services, while King's Lynn will either be a shuttle to Cambridge, or run through trains all day to Liverpool Street.

You'll only have some very limited capacity to terminate trains at Finsbury Park by reversing on the Canonbury Lines.

I'd also expect King's Lynn to more likely be a shuttle to Cambridge off peak with perhaps a limited through peak only service. I'd imagine the new GA fleet will be too stretched to also cover an all day King's Lynn service. However it should be largely 250m trains by then to create peak capacity for the additional Cambridge passengers who are diverted.

 

[Bald Rick]

If it was me doing it (it isn't) there appears to be a way of staging such that there are always at least 5, possibly 6 platforms available, of which at least 4 can take full length trains.

So with a full TL timetable, and the improved service to Moorgate (about 30% extra capacity with the new trains and extra peak services), KX will only need to handle the long distance stuff and the Cambridge / King's Lynn services. Plus perhaps a couple of peak extras to Peterborough.

With some shorter turn rounds on the long distance trains (a couple of hot spares at Bounds
Green wouldn't go amiss), then 6/7 trains each way per hour from 4 platforms leaves another platform or two for a half hourly service to Cambridge / KL and the Peterboro extras.

What I'm saying is - almost a full service. It will need a response team stood at Gasworks tunnel during service hours ready to fix anything, and some additional resource in control to jump in and rework the resource plans during disruption.

 

[IanXC]

Unlikely Hull Trains will get into St P - there's no capacity there and it's a long diversion to achieve.

They've done it before, and they have the track access right to do so.

1. The Train Operator may only call at Liverpool Street where it is unable to operate services to and from London King's Cross and where its services are subject to diversion.

4. The Train Operator may qnly call at St Pancras (Platforms 1- 4) where it is unable to operate services to and from London King's Cross and where its services are subject to diversion.

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/16720/s22-hull-trains-16th-supplemental-agreement.pdf

St Pancras has been achieved by way of a route via Leicester, and also a route via Camden Road in the past.

 

[Kite159]

Cut back some of the inner suburban services to free up some "717"s to run some limited stop services into Moorgate from Stevenage?

 

[takno]

It's easier to see on airline schedules. A lot of routes from the regions to European cities are either suspended or reduced in frequency from last weekend for the next 4,8, or even 12weeks, right up to the clock change.

That's not so bad. I'm absolutely fine with them suspending all European flights into kings cross for the duration

 

[InOban]

Or for another comparison, note that GWR are currently offering special bargain fares until Easter. They have chosen this particular time of year because traffic is at its lowest.

I used the airline comparison because they can and do adjust their frequencies to meet likely demand. They're not in the business of transporting fresh air.

 

[MCR247]

They've done it before, and they have the track access right to do so.



http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/16720/s22-hull-trains-16th-supplemental-agreement.pdf

St Pancras has been achieved by way of a route via Leicester, and also a route via Camden Road in the past.

But with Thameslink dictating the paths available for EMT will that still be possible? The paths may be less 'optimized' for St Pancras platform availability

 

[takno]

Or for another comparison, note that GWR are currently offering special bargain fares until Easter. They have chosen this particular time of year because traffic is at its lowest.

I used the airline comparison because they can and do adjust their frequencies to meet likely demand. They're not in the business of transporting fresh air.

To be fair the trains I've taken this week have been a bit quieter. I think you're way off base with the idea of halving the Edinburgh service being okay though. I've not been on a train that was less than 80% full south of Newcastle, and some of them were deeply off-peak