Potential City Night Line Routes From London St Pancras

[jon0844]

I am sure someone will do some proper research, but given how easy (and quick) it is to pop on Eurostar to Paris or Brussels today (even for a day trip, which I've done many times for meetings in Paris), I am quite sure people will be happy to travel further, and at some point people might find it more convenient to do it overnight too.

 

[WestCoast]

That's true. I've found that moving Eurostar to St Pancras has been nothing but a benefit, but I know that some people didn't like it because it made things harder. Stopping at Ebbsfleet and Ashford as a 'collector' for areas south of London might be a possibility - the Caley Sleeper stops at Watford Junction after all.

I think you've touched on an important issue there about stopping patterns. If you look at the existing sleepers in the UK and those in continental countries with high population densities like the UK, they fit into the network as part of the whole system. They aren't just standalone services between the heart of the largest cities.

Examples of that include lots of calling points to meet regional services, catering to more flows than just principal city to principal city (or tourist spot). Another specific example is the Amsterdam to Prague sleeper picking up 'daytime' passengers in the early morning on its final leg from Dresden to Prague. It all helps to make these services viable.

Another potential problem with the sleepers is the UK Border procedure, which has reared its ugly head a lot recently. With the current set-up, you'd need Schengen exit controls and UK inbound controls at every pick up point across Europe. That's just not practical or cost effective, so an alternative solution would have to be sought. Currently, Eurostar passengers are subjected to security controls, would that requirement be lifted for sleeper passengers?

 

[BRX]

Another potential problem with the sleepers is the UK Border procedure, which has reared its ugly head a lot recently. With the current set-up, you'd need Schengen exit controls and UK inbound controls at every pick up point across Europe. That's just not practical or cost effective, so an alternative solution would have to be sought. Currently, Eurostar passengers are subjected to security controls, would that requirement be lifted for sleeper passengers?

Do it on the train like most traditional cross-border trains?

How do DB propose to deal with this for the direct London-Germany trains by the way?

 

[WestCoast]

Do it on the train like most traditional cross-border trains?

I only once travelled on a European cross-border sleeper train prior to the Schengen Agreement and IIRC, the steward took our passports away upon boarding. I doubt that would be acceptable these days in this part of the world, so passengers coming into the UK would have to be woken up once by the French authorities on their side of the channel and then by the UK Border Agency on this side of the channel, unless an agreement to do it all in France could be reached.

Security would have to be waved for sleeper passengers.

It might not seem like a big deal, but after the brouhaha about the Lille loophole it probably will be.
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How do DB propose to deal with this for the direct London-Germany trains by the way?

Nothing official has been announced.

 

[LE Greys]

I only once travelled on a European cross-border sleeper train prior to the Schengen Agreement and IIRC, the steward took our passports away upon boarding. I doubt that would be acceptable these days in this part of the world, so passengers coming into the UK would have to be woken up once by the French authorities on their side of the channel and then by the UK Border Agency on this side of the channel, unless an agreement to do it all in France could be reached.

Security would have to be waved for sleeper passengers.

It might not seem like a big deal, but after the brouhaha about the Lille loophole it probably will be.
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Nothing official has been announced.

It sounds as though the best way to handle it would be to use the (supposedly mothballed - I've only heard of them on here) immigration and border control facilities at St Pancras in both directions. This would effectively extend the Schengen boundary to London and deal with any problems. Either French border forces would have to be stationed in London, or the UK Border Agency would have to handle it in both directions. I'm not sure if that's possible.

 

[WestCoast]

It sounds as though the best way to handle it would be to use the (supposedly mothballed - I've only heard of them on here) immigration and border control facilities at St Pancras in both directions. This would effectively extend the Schengen boundary to London and deal with any problems. Either French border forces would have to be stationed in London, or the UK Border Agency would have to handle it in both directions. I'm not sure if that's possible.

That's the most feasible solution for the immigration issue, introducing UK inbound controls at St Pancras. The French border force is already stationed at St Pancras, performing 'inbound' Schengen controls after you pass through security. That would continue, the UK doesn't have outbound controls.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, that would make the most sense. It would add a bit of a delay, but would simply be in line with how we do things at airports. I am sure most people would be quite happy with it, as long as the staffing levels were sufficient.

If we don't do that, then it will either restrict the route options (having to allow for stations to have suitable checking facilities before departure) or cause problems and inconvenience for passengers if checks were done on-board. It also means the trains can stop at other places on the way without further headaches.

Hopefully one day we'll just become part of the Schengen agreement.

 

[Greenback]

Hopefully one day we'll just become part of the Schengen agreement.

Amen to that, and hopefully that day will be while I am still alive!

I must admit I can't see much future for overnight services to and from the UK until the immigration problems and resolved and the cost of flying doubles!

 

[jon0844]

Now that the credit/debit card fees must be shown in headline figures, I am sure the cost of flying has already increased quite a bit!

At the moment, flying seems artificially cheap if you can say the flight is 1p and then imply the taxes and other surcharges are almost immaterial.

 

[WestCoast]

Hopefully one day we'll just become part of the Schengen agreement.

One columnist in the DM reckons there should be a UK passport lane..

According to BAA, which operates Heathrow, the Border Force yet again failed to meet its 45 minute maximum waiting time target for passengers from the EU along with Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Iceland and Norway.
Bully for them. Why are we lumped in with other EU citizens when we should have our own fast lane for British citizens? As I have said on RightMinds before, why do we have to queue with other migrants – when we are outside the Schengen agreement – to get into our own country?

Read more

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Now that the credit/debit card fees must be shown in headline figures, I am sure the cost of flying has already increased quite a bit!

At the moment, flying seems artificially cheap if you can say the flight is 1p and then imply the taxes and other surcharges are almost immaterial.

I reckon the cost of flying (accounting for inflation) in general is still lower than it was before 2000. From my experience, if you want a bit of comfort, the fares on sleepers are quite high and generally inflexible like airline tickets.

I travel to Northern Germany from Lancashire every few months and if you book in advance and are slightly flexible with dates/times, flying is almost never more expensive than the train or ferry/train combo. It's a shame because I quite enjoy the rail journey, but I can't always justify spending so much more. If you live near a Eurostar terminal, then your costs for taking this route fall. I am a short bus ride away from a station with a frequent and direct rail service (with very cheap advance fares) to Manchester Airport.

On the route I take, the average budget airline fare including all the extra costs would have to triple or quadruple for it to even come close to the rail or ferry/rail price. I am not bothered about the extra charges if fare is still a third of the next alternative!

 

[Aictos]

I think it'd be great to see City NightLine services from St Pancras. One advantage of sleeper trains is the time they save - given the choice of taking most of a day to reach my destination only to spend a night in a hotel, when I could get an overnight train to save time, I'd take the overnight train. I've read that even after DB start their direct German service, it will still take 8-9 hours to get to Berlin, when this could be done overnight to save time, if a sleeper service was started up.

I'm planning on going to Berlin sometime in 2013/2014 and rather then fly, I much prefer to board a City NightLine service at St Pancras and sleep overnight on it while waking up the following morning fresh and relaxed.

Equally I love to go to Rome but I don't particularly like the existing offering by rail which gets me there for about 10pm local time after travelling all day and being tired, would much rather arrive at the more sociable time of 9am or 10am.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

I wonder if there's any likelihood of extending the Elipsos sleeper from Paris to Madrid and Barcelona to London St Pancras - I think if it did that, it would be well used by holidaymakers and could perhaps carve itself out a niche - people might like to make the journey part of the holiday while avoiding some of the usual hassles of travelling by air. And as said above, it means you don't 'waste a day' travelling by doing it at night and avoids the possible early wake-up for a flight.

Is there any way of finding out how many people use a combination of Eurostar and the Elipsos to get from London to Madrid/Barcelona?

 

[BRX]

If the rail companies could sort out some kind of sensible through-ticketing via Eurostar that in itself would build custom I think. Arguably that should be the first thing to sort out. I often suggest to friends that they use the train to get to places in Europe, but if they look via Eurostar or Rail Europe they just get quoted very expensive prices that don't come anywhere near to competing with airfares. I know that it can often be done more cheaply by buying the various legs separately, but most people don't want that hassle (and the uncertainty about what happens if they miss a train due to a previous leg being delayed), let alone know how to go about negotiating the various foreign rail operators' websites.

I know there is the "Railteam" thing that's supposed to be doing this but I've seen very little evidence of much improvement in the last few years.

 

[cle]

I wonder if there's any likelihood of extending the Elipsos sleeper from Paris to Madrid and Barcelona to London St Pancras - I think if it did that, it would be well used by holidaymakers and could perhaps carve itself out a niche - people might like to make the journey part of the holiday while avoiding some of the usual hassles of travelling by air. And as said above, it means you don't 'waste a day' travelling by doing it at night and avoids the possible early wake-up for a flight.

Is there any way of finding out how many people use a combination of Eurostar and the Elipsos to get from London to Madrid/Barcelona?

I would love something like this:

London -> Lille and then Avignon - Montpellier - Perpignan - Barcelona.
London -> Lille and then Toulon, Cannes Nice and towards Genoa
London - > Lille and then Milan - split to Verona and Venice and to Bologna, Florence and Rome.

Think it could be hugely popular. Not sure if the spread of stations is too big for arrivals - ideally between 6:30 and 10am.

I know all can be done via Paris but it'd be so special if we could do it directly from St P. Eurostars and Kent HS are quiet after about 8pm.

Madrid you'd probably want first morning stop at Bordeaux, but maybe not far enough. There aren't as many big destinations on that route - Biarritz/St JdL etc.. would be good but aren't massive draws.

 

[Bald Rick]

It sounds as though the best way to handle it would be to use the (supposedly mothballed - I've only heard of them on here) immigration and border control facilities at St Pancras in both directions. This would effectively extend the Schengen boundary to London and deal with any problems. Either French border forces would have to be stationed in London, or the UK Border Agency would have to handle it in both directions. I'm not sure if that's possible.

There is already UK immigration at St Pancras for some trains, as anyone who has caught an inbound Disney train recently will testify.

The one thing in the way of sleepers to Europe (and in Europe for that matter) is the cost. I suspect the market would be rather small if the ticket price reflected the actual cost of providing the service. Two decades ago I worked in the Intercity sleeper team and the sleepers lost pots of money. That was before the advent of track access charges, leased rolling stock and hired-in locos. I don't even want to think how much they must lose now.

Whilst some people might prefer a sleeper to flying, in the real world not that many people do. If they did then Scotrail would sell out their sleepers a bit more often. I'm fortunate enough to get free travel on all trains in this country and yet will ALWAYS fly if I'm going anywhere more than an hour's drive north of Edinburgh or Glasgow. In my opinion it is so much quicker and considerably less tiring.

 

[LE Greys]

I reckon the cost of flying (accounting for inflation) in general is still lower than it was before 2000. From my experience, if you want a bit of comfort, the fares on sleepers are quite high and generally inflexible like airline tickets.

I travel to Northern Germany from Lancashire every few months and if you book in advance and are slightly flexible with dates/times, flying is almost never more expensive than the train or ferry/train combo. It's a shame because I quite enjoy the rail journey, but I can't always justify spending so much more. If you live near a Eurostar terminal, then your costs for taking this route fall. I am a short bus ride away from a station with a frequent and direct rail service (with very cheap advance fares) to Manchester Airport.

On the route I take, the average budget airline fare including all the extra costs would have to triple or quadruple for it to even come close to the rail or ferry/rail price. I am not bothered about the extra charges if fare is still a third of the next alternative!

In terms of purely flying, then yes. In terms of flight plus hotel, even a very cheap one, then the sleeper begins to look more attractive. It depends on how you want to handle things. I usually travel the day before an event and stay overnight, so that I arrive fresh instead of tired. However, if there is a sleeper available (and if you can actually sleep on it, not guaranteed) then it might be worth travelling overnight. It depends on distance and convenience. And when you were notified that you had to travel. If it was the day before (which has happened to me sometimes), then unless the airline has a standby policy, your only option might be an SOR or a very expensive air ticket.

 

[Greenback]

Now that the credit/debit card fees must be shown in headline figures, I am sure the cost of flying has already increased quite a bit!

It has, but alongside that it still usually works out cheaper than rail. One thing that I do if air fares are high to where I want to go, is to look at nearby cities that are linked by rail. As an example, I saved about £120 each by flying to Berona rather than Venice, and then buying 9 euro tickets on the train, which took just over an hour.

Of course, it makes for a longer journey, and won't always be worth it!

At the moment, flying seems artificially cheap if you can say the flight is 1p and then imply the taxes and other surcharges are almost immaterial.

Also, the preception remains that carriers like Easyjet are bound to be cheaper than 'flag' carriers. I think it was yourself that has pointe dout frequently that this isn;t necessarily the case once the hidden extras are taken into account. It was certainly true with Verona, where BA was the cheapest overall!

I reckon the cost of flying (accounting for inflation) in general is still lower than it was before 2000. From my experience, if you want a bit of comfort, the fares on sleepers are quite high and generally inflexible like airline tickets.

I agree, which is why I think that air fares need to rise further before overnight travel is really price competitive.

On the route I take, the average budget airline fare including all the extra costs would have to triple or quadruple for it to even come close to the rail or ferry/rail price. I am not bothered about the extra charges if fare is still a third of the next alternative!

True, though I suspect the actual amount air fares need to rise will vary from route to route.

I'm planning on going to Berlin sometime in 2013/2014 and rather then fly, I much prefer to board a City NightLine service at St Pancras and sleep overnight on it while waking up the following morning fresh and relaxed.

Equally I love to go to Rome but I don't particularly like the existing offering by rail which gets me there for about 10pm local time after travelling all day and being tired, would much rather arrive at the more sociable time of 9am or 10am.

Travelling by rail to Rome is only worthwhile at the moment if it is considered part of a holiday with stops and scenery en route!

I know there is the "Railteam" thing that's supposed to be doing this but I've seen very little evidence of much improvement in the last few years.

Hasn't the 'Railteam' been abolished? Or am I thinkin gof soemthing else?

 

[Bald Rick]

In terms of purely flying, then yes. In terms of flight plus hotel, even a very cheap one, then the sleeper begins to look more attractive. It depends on how you want to handle things. I usually travel the day before an event and stay overnight, so that I arrive fresh instead of tired. However, if there is a sleeper available (and if you can actually sleep on it, not guaranteed) then it might be worth travelling overnight. It depends on distance and convenience. And when you were notified that you had to travel. If it was the day before (which has happened to me sometimes), then unless the airline has a standby policy, your only option might be an SOR or a very expensive air ticket.

Not sure about that. Just done a typical cheapest standard class search for trip London - Barca via Eurostar and sleeper for midweek next week. £619 return.

Alternatively I can fly with Easyjet from Gatwick for £111 on same dates / approx times of departure. Call it £170 with bags and travel to/from airport. Add in a night in a junior suite at the best hotel in Barca at £220 and I'm still £230 better off by plane. With the added bonus of an extra evening in Barcelona rather than a night experiencing SNCFs relaxed views on cant deficiency.

 

[BRX]

Hasn't the 'Railteam' been abolished? Or am I thinkin gof soemthing else?

Doesn't look like it...

http://www.railteam.co.uk/

 

[jon0844]

Two decades ago I worked in the Intercity sleeper team and the sleepers lost pots of money. That was before the advent of track access charges, leased rolling stock and hired-in locos. I don't even want to think how much they must lose now.

If you had longer, and wider, trains fitting out with airline style first class pods/beds, reserving cabins for first class, you'd get a lot more people on a train and surely that would make it more profitable?

Or if you do keep cabins, give them all the creature comforts - like a TV (with on demand content), Wi-Fi, power points etc. Make the toilets or showers nicer, and make it so people actually see it as a luxurious way to travel - not just a way to travel to avoid flying or for a bit of extra convenience.
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I think it was yourself that has pointe dout frequently that this isn;t necessarily the case once the hidden extras are taken into account.

Yes, I often find BA is as cheap as Ryanair - and I can take a suitcase and reserve a seat for free. And it's a better airport I arrive at.

 

[Bald Rick]

If you had longer, and wider, trains fitting out with airline style first class pods/beds, reserving cabins for first class, you'd get a lot more people on a train and surely that would make it more profitable?

Well it depends how you define profitability given the money go round on the railways. But I guess that the average income per train on UK sleepers would need to at least double, without employing additional resource, in order to get anywhere near breaking even. I can't see the economics being any different with a link to Europe.

 

[WestCoast]

Yes, I often find BA is as cheap as Ryanair - and I can take a suitcase and reserve a seat for free. And it's a better airport I arrive at.

BA can be quite cost effective, but unfortunately they don't fly anywhere direct from Manchester e.t.c, you have to fly via Heathrow or Gatwick from Northern England and Scotland. I have done that from time to time (just recently I flew Vienna to Manchester via Heathrow) and wouldn't recommend it to families/older travellers over flying direct with easyJet (who fly to 'main' airports like BA).

You could argue with the budget airlines, why should I pay for other traveller's suitcases, airport check-in desk use or onboard snack? These things do cost the airlines money, it's not just blatant profiteering (card charges are a separate issue here). That's the whole concept, pay-as-you-go.
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If you had longer, and wider, trains fitting out with airline style first class pods/beds, reserving cabins for first class, you'd get a lot more people on a train and surely that would make it more profitable?

Or if you do keep cabins, give them all the creature comforts - like a TV (with on demand content), Wi-Fi, power points etc. Make the toilets or showers nicer, and make it so people actually see it as a luxurious way to travel - not just a way to travel to avoid flying or for a bit of extra convenience..

The CNL deluxe ensuites are a pretty luxurious way to travel, it's the premium fares paid here that help support the whole operation on the continent. They are a league ahead of the UK sleeper products though, which is outdated (but nostalgic) by continental standards.

 

[jon0844]

I get the PAYG concept if you charged for bags, extra weight, wanting a nice seat etc - but Ryanair pushed it too far and introduced those extra hoops to try and catch everyone out.

I can't be bothered to go and get a special prepaid card that might change tomorrow, and seek out the free check-in deals etc.

But, clearly, if you can't fly with another carrier from your local airport or they don't fly to where you want to go - who am I to say don't fly with Ryanair?

As long as they're forced to be totally transparent then they're just fine. Besides somewhat disinterested staff, it's a safe airline (very safe) and you can't take that away from them.

I now prefer to go with BA and don't feel I'm paying more as long as I book in advance or use my accrued points (and the points I get via Tesco Clubcard points come in very handy). I can nearly always be flexible on flights, which makes a big difference.

Still, knowing how Ryanair (and easyjet) can treat you when things to pear shaped, I'd only ever fly Ryanair to somewhere that I knew I had a 'plan b', such as being able to go back into town and sleep with friends/family. I'd never accept having to sort things out myself then claim the money back from the airline later.

 

[WestCoast]

easyJet are targeting the business and premium leisure markets more and more. They tend to fly frequently to main airports, offer a range of fully flexible fares alongside cheaper inflexible fares, have introduced a flat rate on all debit cards and don't charge for airport check-in like Ryanair.

They'll also put you on an earlier flight for free if, for example, a meeting finishes early (BA don't even offer this). They have a reasonable flat rate (£50?) to be put on the next flight if you miss it through traffic/late train e.t.c, although this isn't explicitly advertised.

In all likelihood, they will be rolling out allocated seating across their network from next year. I had a late night cancellation in Amsterdam with them a few years ago and they just said book in a hotel and we'll pay you back. And they did pay for a 4* hotel with breakfast, within three weeks of returning.

Most of the new British Airways 'mixed fleet crew' (that were hired after the strikes) were recruited from easyJet.

But, clearly, if you can't fly with another carrier from your local airport or they don't fly to where you want to go - who am I to say don't fly with Ryanair?

Well, over 70 million people flew with them last year, so that does speak volumes. I don't particularly like Ryanair's business practices, mostly because of their poor treatment of junior staff (who are on third party contracts), but fly them out of convenience mainly. More senior staff are well paid and treated better from what I hear. They still have no union representation though, which would be quite a shock to staff on the heavily unionised railways!

 

[jon0844]

I would still prefer Easyjet over Ryanair though. As you've stated, they seem a lot fairer (and I've always thought that). Problem for me is that they don't fly to Stockholm.

If they did, I could see BA losing out - especially if I could fly from Luton, which is a 10 minute drive from my house (well, 10 minutes early morning/late night!).

 

[Greenback]

'Pay As You Go' is all very well, but I'm quite happy to pay for other people's suitcases and so on as long as the total cost is cheaper than the competition.

But I'm still willing to pay more for a comfortable rail experience. just not 3 or 4 times more than the plane.

 

[LE Greys]

They have a reasonable flat rate (£50?) to be put on the next flight if you miss it through traffic/late train e.t.c, although this isn't explicitly advertised.

BA have done that for free on several occasions when I've been delayed, and not just on domestic flights. Checking in on-line and an Executive Club card might have helped, though.

 

[jon0844]

But I'm still willing to pay more for a comfortable rail experience. just not 3 or 4 times more than the plane.

The prices quoted here to travel by train to Barcelona are crazy. If these are the costs then I can't see airlines being worried anytime soon.

Add better pricing to my list of things a train from London to Spain would need, besides being modern and comfortable!

 

[Greenback]

The prices quoted here to travel by train to Barcelona are crazy. If these are the costs then I can't see airlines being worried anytime soon.

Add better pricing to my list of things a train from London to Spain would need, besides being modern and comfortable!

I have looked into going to Spain and Portugal by train, but prices similar to those put me off straight away!

From what I have seen, prices to Germany, Switzerland, Austria and Italy are better, but the timings are not good, which is why I'd love to go to sleep in the UK and wake up in the Alps or Bavaria!

But you're right, the airlines won't be worried about competition from night trains ove rlong distances just yet...

 

[WestCoast]

I would still prefer Easyjet over Ryanair though. As you've stated, they seem a lot fairer (and I've always thought that). Problem for me is that they don't fly to Stockholm.

Jet2 are also quite good in my experience, with very friendly and down-to-earth staff. Must be the only airline where there are massive canvases of animals in the toilets and a greeting of "welcome onboard, love/pet/duck" is the norm. Well, maybe not, but the staff are very 'local' to each base let's say.

Sadly, their network is mostly tourist focused and they are practically unheard of any further south than the Midlands (they don't serve anywhere below East Midlands). Must be working for them as they are financially sound from what I hear.

Germanwings were also very good (seemed a bit too good for low-cost actually with complimentary newspapers e.t.c) and Wizzair is literally a bright pink Hungarian (?) version of Ryanair and serves some rather interesting routes (Doncaster to Vilnius anyone?).
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The prices quoted here to travel by train to Barcelona are crazy. If these are the costs then I can't see airlines being worried anytime soon.

Add better pricing to my list of things a train from London to Spain would need, besides being modern and comfortable!

In addition to more accessible pricing structures, through tickets (or at least something like the London CIV set-up) would also be a must for many travellers, who want the piece of mind knowing that they are definitely covered in case of delays.