Potential for reopening of the Timperley-Glazebrook line

[LNW-GW Joint]

The strategic focus is on Northern Powerhouse routes which link in with HS2 (both western and eastern branches).
The HS2 Ltd report is due out anytime now.
We are more likely to see Liverpool-Sheffield via the HS2 Manchester Airport station, and on to Yorkshire.
Eg, there are suggested routes involving a tunnel across Manchester and out to Miles Platting for Standedge/Calder Valley routes.
Routeing via the Airport would mean a link from the Chat Moss line (via Culcheth) or the CLC line (from Risley) on to the HS2 route via Rostherne to Manchester Airport.
The old routes via Partington and Lymm don't fit this strategy, and have been redeveloped anyway in the 50+ years since closure.
Some of the GC Lowton-Glazebrook line past Culcheth looks like being reused by HS2 though.

 

[furnessvale]

None as far as I'm aware. I was suggesting one possible use for re-opening this route was as a way to Trafford Park avoiding Castlefield, though even that's pretty marginal and electrifying the CLC with new chord somehow to the WCML would be a much better overall solution.

A much better solution to the freight problem is relaying the line from Kenyon Jcn northwards to a new west facing link to the Chat moss line. Then via Lowton or Earlstown the WCML can be accessed north and south.
This could be called crayonista, but this is the preferred route of HS2b and a joint formation could reduce costs for both.

Added (as alluded to by LNW-GW Joint above)

 

[Altfish]

A much better solution to the freight problem is relaying the line from Kenyon Jcn northwards to a new west facing link to the Chat moss line. Then via Lowton or Earlstown the WCML can be accessed north and south.
This could be called crayonista, but this is the preferred route of HS2b and a joint formation could reduce costs for both.

Added (as alluded to by LNW-GW Joint above)

Isn't most of that route now the Leigh by pass?

 

[snowball]

A much better solution to the freight problem is relaying the line from Kenyon Jcn northwards to a new west facing link to the Chat moss line. Then via Lowton or Earlstown the WCML can be accessed north and south.

As Kenyon Junction was on the Chat Moss line, how can you go north from Kenyon Junction to the Chat Moss line? Do you mean from Glazebrook on the CLC line to a point west of KJ on the Chat Moss line?

 

[furnessvale]

As Kenyon Junction was on the Chat Moss line, how can you go north from Kenyon Junction to the Chat Moss line? What lines are you trying to connect here?

Sorry, the result of trying to work off the top of my head, rather than referring to documents.

The route in question runs from Glazebrook, northwards towards the Chat Moss line where, of course there never was an existing junction. A west facing chord would be required onto the Chat Moss line.

I am not sure of the Leigh bypass but no maps in my possession show a road in way of a potential railway which, in any case is earmarked as a route for HS2b.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

As Kenyon Junction was on the Chat Moss line, how can you go north from Kenyon Junction to the Chat Moss line? Do you mean from Glazebrook on the CLC line to KJ on the Chat Moss line?

Except the line north from Glazebrook never had a Chat Moss junction, it passed over on a bridge.

 

[snowball]

I am not sure of the Leigh bypass but no maps in my possession show a road in way of a potential railway which, in any case is earmarked as a route for HS2b.

Altfish was assuming that when you said north from Kenyon Junction you meant north from Kenyon Junction, and if you look there you'll find that the route of the former railway becomes the A579 Atherleigh Way as soon as you get north of the A580 East Lancs Road.

 

[edwin_m]

Trafford Park has no rail access to the west, though I suppose track layout changes could be made to allow trains to reverse in the area of the Man U platform. The junction at Glazebrook was facing to/from Liverpool so another reversal would be needed there, or a new curve on a tricky gradient in a built-up area. And finally the line from Timperley has no access to the Styal line which the trains to and from Trafford Park normallly use, or southwards towards Cheadle Hulme at Edgeley which they might conceivably use instead. Either of these would be yet another curve in a built-up area. Along with lack of electrification, this idea is basically a non-starter.

 

[lejog]

The strategic focus is on Northern Powerhouse routes which link in with HS2 (both western and eastern branches).
The HS2 Ltd report is due out anytime now.
We are more likely to see Liverpool-Sheffield via the HS2 Manchester Airport station, and on to Yorkshire.
Eg, there are suggested routes involving a tunnel across Manchester and out to Miles Platting for Standedge/Calder Valley routes.
Routeing via the Airport would mean a link from the Chat Moss line (via Culcheth) or the CLC line (from Risley) on to the HS2 route via Rostherne to Manchester Airport.
The old routes via Partington and Lymm don't fit this strategy, and have been redeveloped anyway in the 50+ years since closure.
Some of the GC Lowton-Glazebrook line past Culcheth looks like being reused by HS2 though.

TfN's preferred outline route for NPR is already known, although where the combination of a new Liverpool-Warrington-HS2-Piccadily-Bradford-Leeds line and a Hope Valley via Stockport upgrade leaves Liverpool-Sheffield services is unclear.

User Cherguevara on SSC has found this paper on which the Modern Railways item is apparently based:

http://westyorkshire.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s4103/Item 7 - Vision for NPR - FINAL.pdf

At its recent Partnership Board meeting, TfN confirmed that its emerging vision for the NPR network is:

 A new line between Liverpool and the HS2 Manchester spur via Warrington;
 Capacity at Manchester Piccadilly for about 8 through services per hour;
 A new Trans Pennine rail line that connects Manchester and Leeds via Bradford;
 Significant upgrades along the corridor of the existing Hope Valley from Sheffield to Manchester line via Stockport;
 Leeds to Sheffield delivered through HS2 Phase 2b and upgrading the route from Sheffield;
 Leeds to Newcastle via HS2 junction at Garforth and upgrades to the East Coast Mainline; and
 Significant upgrades to existing line for Leeds to Hull (via Selby) and Sheffield to Hull (via Doncaster).

The money for HS2/NPR "touchpoints" announced by the Chancellor at the Tory party conference (see other threads) seems to have been a rapid response to part of what they're asking for here.

An immediate priority for the TfN Partnership Board is ensuring that Northern Powerhouse Rail is fully integrated into the planning of Phase 2B of HS2, to ensure both maximum value for money and that NPR can be developed without delay. The Board is calling on the Secretary of State for Transport to ensure that six vital touchpoints are included in the HS2 Phase 2B Hybrid Bill:

 Provision for a junction between HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail east of Leeds at Garforth to create capacity for NPR services from Leeds to York and beyond. This would enable faster Leeds – York – Darlington – Durham – Newcastle services, and release capacity for more local and commuter services east of Leeds.
 A connection south of Leeds at Stourton between the HS2 Eastern Leg and existing line into Leeds, enabling NPR trains to run from Sheffield to Leeds and on to York and the North East, thus connecting Leeds from north and south.
 A connection north of Sheffield at Clayton, enabling trains to run through Sheffield and rejoin the HS2 line to Leeds.
 Provision for a junction between HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail on the HS2 Manchester Airport spur south-west of the airport, allowing construction of a new line to serve Liverpool-Manchester Airport-Manchester.
 Provision for a junction on the HS2 mainline north of Crewe, allowing for HS2 services to Liverpool.
 Realignment of the HS2 route on the approach to Manchester Piccadilly to enable either an underground Northern Powerhouse Rail through station adjacent to the HS2 Manchester Piccadilly station or a surface turn-back station that supports delivery of higher level NPR service frequencies

 

[flixtonman]

TfN's preferred outline route for NPR is already known, although where the combination of a new Liverpool-Warrington-HS2-Piccadily-Bradford-Leeds line and a Hope Valley via Stockport upgrade leaves Liverpool-Sheffield services is unclear.

While acknowledging the force of the arguments about the Northern Powerhouse Routes and HS2, the latest time estimate is that it will be in nine years time at the earliest before even the London to Birmingham HS2 phase becomes operational. What other plans are there in the meantime to reduce [or at least, not increase] overcrowding on local commuter services around Manchester? This is just one of the points which might justify further debate about the Glazebrook-Timperley route.

 

[furnessvale]

While acknowledging the force of the arguments about the Northern Powerhouse Routes and HS2, the latest time estimate is that it will be in nine years time at the earliest before even the London to Birmingham HS2 phase becomes operational. What other plans are there in the meantime to reduce [or at least, not increase] overcrowding on local commuter services around Manchester? This is just one of the points which might justify further debate about the Glazebrook-Timperley route.

Glazebrook-Timperley has 2 extra reverses.
Glazebrook-Chat Moss line has no extra reverses and gets you to WCML north and south.
Nothing to stop Glazebrook-Chat Moss going ahead now, knowing that eventually HS2b will run alongside it for a mile or two.

 

[B&I]

Glazebrook-Timperley has 2 extra reverses.
Glazebrook-Chat Moss line has no extra reverses and gets you to WCML north and south.
Nothing to stop Glazebrook-Chat Moss going ahead now, knowing that eventually HS2b will run alongside it for a mile or two.

And until Chat Moss has been bypassed, the last thing it needs on it is trundly freight. Though the same could be said for the CLC.

 

[B&I]

TfN's preferred outline route for NPR is already known, although where the combination of a new Liverpool-Warrington-HS2-Piccadily-Bradford-Leeds line and a Hope Valley via Stockport upgrade leaves Liverpool-Sheffield services is unclear.

How about, using the new line as far as Manchester, then carrying on to Sheffield via Stockport and the Hope Valley? What other options would there be?

 

[furnessvale]

And until Chat Moss has been bypassed, the last thing it needs on it is trundly freight. Though the same could be said for the CLC.

Fully agree with you, but how else do we free up paths through Piccadilly 13/14?

 

[B&I]

Fully agree with you, but how else do we free up paths through Piccadilly 13/14?

And so the pig gets squeezed round the python, until (as CJ would have put it) someone grasps the nettle by both horns and actually builds some new capacity.

 

[markem41]

On long sections of two track (such as the CLC), are there any routes where stopping services are held while faster services are allowed to pass on the 'wrong' track to help manage capacity? I presume from the lack of crossovers, this isn't favoured.

 

[Altfish]

On long sections of two track (such as the CLC), are there any routes where stopping services are held while faster services are allowed to pass on the 'wrong' track to help manage capacity? I presume from the lack of crossovers, this isn't favoured.

On the CLC, the stopping trains are the fast trains unless you mean letting the freight pass them.

 

[markem41]

On the CLC, the stopping trains are the fast trains unless you mean letting the freight pass them.

Just thinking in general, it must be a common problem. There is usually no space on a twin track route for passing loops so do any solutions exist to allow a faster service to get past a stopping service.

 

[edwin_m]

Just thinking in general, it must be a common problem. There is usually no space on a twin track route for passing loops so do any solutions exist to allow a faster service to get past a stopping service.

It's unusual for a passenger train to be "looped" as even with the best signalling it would have a wait of 5min or so. I understand a late-running CLC train could be looped at Glazebrook or (westbound) can take the slow line at South Parkway so the following fast can overtake. But it's still a critical route with a lot of potential for late trains to delay others.

 

[Ianno87]

Just thinking in general, it must be a common problem. There is usually no space on a twin track route for passing loops so do any solutions exist to allow a faster service to get past a stopping service.

Not without a more significant stretch of 4 trackimg, no.

Next best alternative would be to split the stopping service in two (as was the case pre-May 98 with the old Oxford Rd-Irlam service and Warrimgton Central-Lime St service)

But in this case you'd operate (say) separate stopping services (say) Lime Street-Warrington Central and Warrington Central/Irlam to Oxford Rd/wherever, with new turnback infrastructure for both directions at Warrington Central.

It would mean that end-to-end the stopping service wouldn't need to be so wedged around fast trains.

Cost is loss of cross-Warrington local direct connectivity (e.g. Flixton to Liverpool), although fast connections would be possible at Birchwood/Warrington Central etc.

 

[Ianno87]

Just thinking in general, it must be a common problem. There is usually no space on a twin track route for passing loops so do any solutions exist to allow a faster service to get past a stopping service.

Not without a more significant stretch of 4 trackimg, no.

Next best alternative would be to split the stopping service in two (as was the case pre-May 98 with the old Oxford Rd-Irlam service and Warrimgton Central-Lime St service)

But in this case you'd operate (say) separate stopping services (say) Lime Street-Warrington Central and Warrington Central/Irlam to Oxford Rd/wherever, with new turnback infrastructure for both directions at Warrington Central.

It would mean that end-to-end the stopping service wouldn't need to be do wedged around fast trains.

Cost is loss of cross-Warrington local direct connectivity (e.g. Flixton to Liverpool), although fast connections would be possible at Birchwood/Warrington Central etc.

 

[edwin_m]

It ought to be possible to put in turnbacks eastbound to westbound at Birchwood and westbound to eastbound at the new Warrington West station, so that the slow trains would overlap through the Warrington stations.

 

[B&I]

It ought to be possible to put in turnbacks eastbound to westbound at Birchwood and westbound to eastbound at the new Warrington West station, so that the slow trains would overlap through the Warrington stations.

It should, with stopping trains as far as Birchwood running as an extension to Merseyrail's Northern Line (which would also allow the Hunt's Cross terminus to be removed, and a decent stretch of 4 tracking east of Allerton Junction), and stopping trains to Warrington West forming part of a proper commuter heavy rail network for Manchester, when TfGM get round to realising the necessity for such a thing. A semi-fast Lime Street-South Parkway-Widnes-Warrington Central-Birchwood-Oxford Rd-Piccadilly-Airport service would supplement this. The fast trains, in an ideal world, would be on an NPR bypass line.

 

[Altfish]

It should, with stopping trains as far as Birchwood running as an extension to Merseyrail's Northern Line (which would also allow the Hunt's Cross terminus to be removed, and a decent stretch of 4 tracking east of Allerton Junction), and stopping trains to Warrington West forming part of a proper commuter heavy rail network for Manchester, when TfGM get round to realising the necessity for such a thing. A semi-fast Lime Street-South Parkway-Widnes-Warrington Central-Birchwood-Oxford Rd-Piccadilly-Airport service would supplement this. The fast trains, in an ideal world, would be on an NPR bypass line.

A slight problem. Warrington is NOT in the area covered by TfGM, so they have no jurisdiction and are not interested beyond Irlam(?)

 

[B&I]

A slight problem. Warrington is NOT in the area covered by TfGM, so they have no jurisdiction and are not interested beyond Irlam(?)

Given their myopia about heavy rail within their border, I doubt it would make any difference to their approach. Leaving to one side the strange, 1969-era lines on maps which still largely dictate local transport planning in this country, isn't it obvious that Manchester (and the other major regional cities) should have proper commuter rail stretching as far as major surrounding towns like (in Manchester's case) Warrington? As it is, Manchester thinks its the Barcelona of the north, but has the transport infrastructure of Chigley.

 

[Altfish]

Given their myopia about heavy rail within their border, I doubt it would make any difference to their approach. Leaving to one side the strange, 1969-era lines on maps which still largely dictate local transport planning in this country, isn't it obvious that Manchester (and the other major regional cities) should have proper commuter rail stretching as far as major surrounding towns like (in Manchester's case) Warrington? As it is, Manchester thinks its the Barcelona of the north, but has the transport infrastructure of Chigley.

Don't blame Manchester, they get funding from central government and so does Warrington BC/Cheshire, it should be Cheshire and Warrington funding the outer reaches.
I would hardly call the Metrolink "..transport infrastructure of Chigley."

 

[Chester1]

Don't blame Manchester, they get funding from central government and so does Warrington BC/Cheshire, it should be Cheshire and Warrington funding the outer reaches.
I would hardly call the Metrolink "..transport infrastructure of Chigley."

Warrington BC wrote to the Greater Manchester councils proposing talks on it joining the Greater Manchester Combined Authority but they never got a response so have since held talks with the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority (the 5 Merseyside councils + Halton BC). I am surprised the Greater Manchester boroughs where not remotely interested in a chance to expand. Presumably had they joined the CA they would have joined TfGM but not become part of the ceremonial county of Greater Manchester. I don't think any of the proposals to reopen the line have a chance for the foreseeable future. The likely passenger and freight demand is pretty low.

 

[Altfish]

Warrington BC wrote to the Greater Manchester councils proposing talks on it joining the Greater Manchester Combined Authority but they never got a response so have since held talks with the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority (the 5 Merseyside councils + Halton BC). I am surprised the Greater Manchester boroughs where not remotely interested in a chance to expand. Presumably had they joined the CA they would have joined TfGM but not become part of the ceremonial county of Greater Manchester. I don't think any of the proposals to reopen the line have a chance for the foreseeable future. The likely passenger and freight demand is pretty low.

And Derbyshire and Cheshire East and Lancashire, etc. all want part of Manchester's successful transport policy; Knutsford wants trams, Glossop wants tram-trains.
There are some plans for a link to Warrington down this line from the airport/HS2 using tram-trains. It is admittedly blue sky thinking but it is being considered.

 

[LOL The Irony]

And Derbyshire and Cheshire East and Lancashire, etc. all want part of Manchester's successful transport policy; Knutsford wants trams, Glossop wants tram-trains.
There are some plans for a link to Warrington down this line from the airport/HS2 using tram-trains. It is admittedly blue sky thinking but it is being considered.

As helpful as it would be having a tram potentially every 15 minutes, I'm happy with the half-hourly service we're getting.

 

[B&I]

Don't blame Manchester, they get funding from central government and so does Warrington BC/Cheshire, it should be Cheshire and Warrington funding the outer reaches.
I would hardly call the Metrolink "..transport infrastructure of Chigley."

You're right. I was thinking of the inadequate heavy rail network. The Metrolink would barely meet the needs of Camberwick Green.