Potential future SWML service post Crossrail 2

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The Ham

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There is often talk on the possible number of extra services on the SWML after Crossrail 2, however few ever make suggestions as to what that could look like. As such, rather than the traditional just add a few extra services to what currently run (i.e. an extra service to Southampton), what other services could be run which don't currently happen?

One possible could be to change the existing London to Portsmouth via Basingstoke service so that it runs fast to Farnborough and then splits to carry on as it does now and to form a new service calling at all stations to Yeovil. In doing so it would mean that an additional path for the Basingstoke stoppers wouldn't be need (or could be used to create a second service following the same pattern)

It would also provide a stooping service to Yeovil allowing the "existing" WofE services to be run faster. Although from the smaller stations west of Basingstoke it could add 15 minutes to the journey time people are likely to just get to Salisbury or Basingstoke and switch to a faster service offsetting some of that loss.

To further offset that loss (and as hinted at above) two such services could exist providing WofE stations with a minimum of 2 trains per hour and up to 4 trains per hour (for the likes of Andover, Salisbury and Yeovil). Likewise, the stations in North East Hampshire could have a minimum of 4 trains per hour (Farnborough Main & Fleet would have 5 trains per hour, unless Farnborough gained other services) as well as improving the provision to stations on the current Portsmouth (via Basingstoke) service all by just using up one additional path out of Waterloo.

In doing so that would allow more paths for other lines, whilst providing an increase of frequencies (some doubling) to a number of stations which otherwise could be seen as a lower priority.
 
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swt_passenger

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Presumably your proposals take it for granted that the route to Yeovil has been electrified, and also for 2/4 tph that it has had further re-doubling beyond the status quo?

The Portsmouth via Basingstoke isn't hourly all day, in the evening peak it is half hourly, and they aren't all short trains, so might not actually be 'splittable' if the effect is to reduce capacity west of the split point.
 

The Ham

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Presumably your proposals take it for granted that the route to Yeovil has been electrified, and also for 2/4 tph that it has had further re-doubling beyond the status quo?

The Portsmouth via Basingstoke isn't hourly all day, in the evening peak it is half hourly, and they aren't all short trains, so might not actually be 'splittable' if the effect is to reduce capacity west of the split point.

I was assuming that it was electrified and addition works, which I think is a reasonable assumption given that it will likely be post 2030.

In the evening peak they don't call at Farnborough either (there are extra services which run fast to Farnborough and then act as stoppers Basingstoke) so there is no reason to think that the extra path couldn't provide some extra capacity.
 

Bald Rick

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I was assuming that it was electrified and addition works, which I think is a reasonable assumption given that it will likely be post 2030.

Electrification - possibly (30% chance IMHO). More doubling in the line - very unlikely.


The whole point of releasing main line capacity is to provide it where it is needed. People are standing from Southampton today. Spare capacity is not going to be frittered on places that don't need it.
 
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NSE

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More than 3 tph at Yeovil would seem overkill to me. Though I've done Waterloo to Exeter and back once in my whole life so I'm happy to be corrected. Also, would there be the capacity in the timetable to turn back that many at Yeovil? I can't recall there being sidings there so I guess the current terminators just turn on the mainline. Current service levels I guess would permit that. As I say, happy to be corrected on these points!
 

The Ham

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The whole point of releasing main line capacity is to provide it where it is needed. People are standing from Southampton today. Spare capacity is not going to be frittered on places that don't need it.

With its one of the reasons I suggested what I did, as by using an existing parh one other path you get an increase in services on what is currently spilt over 3 services. It means that the other paths that are released can be used to provide capacity to places like Southampton rather than using 3 paths to provide extra capacity (one to Salisbury, one Basingstoke stopper and one Portsmouth via Basingstoke) on those services.
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More than 3 tph at Yeovil would seem overkill to me. Though I've done Waterloo to Exeter and back once in my whole life so I'm happy to be corrected. Also, would there be the capacity in the timetable to turn back that many at Yeovil? I can't recall there being sidings there so I guess the current terminators just turn on the mainline. Current service levels I guess would permit that. As I say, happy to be corrected on these points!

4 trains per hour may be excessive now, but in about 15 years time it may not be so bad (bearing in mind that rail passenger numbers have doubled in the last 20 years).

Turning back shouldn't be a problem, if all else fails you could just use one platform for thorough trains (4tph) and one for the trains being turned back (2tph).
 

Bald Rick

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With its one of the reasons I suggested what I did, as by using an existing parh one other path you get an increase in services on what is currently spilt over 3 services. It means that the other paths that are released can be used to provide capacity to places like Southampton rather than using 3 paths to provide extra capacity (one to Salisbury, one Basingstoke stopper and one Portsmouth via Basingstoke) on those services.
).

But as has been said, these trains run at maximum length in the morning peak, and are full. If you make them join / split, you reduce capacity and extend journey times. Unless you mean running 24 coach trains, which I don't think you do.
 

The Ham

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But as has been said, these trains run at maximum length in the morning peak, and are full. If you make them join / split, you reduce capacity and extend journey times. Unless you mean running 24 coach trains, which I don't think you do.

swt_passenger talked about the evening peak, in the morning peak is a different calling pattern as the Portsmouth via Basingstoke services don't call at Farnborough in the Morning peaks. As such there are extra services during the peaks.

Even if the suggested calling pattern only happens off peak it will mean that if things fall apart that there would be more ability for the network to recover as there would be spare paths.

Anyway didn't you say "Spare capacity is not going to be frittered on places that don't need it." Either my suggestion is stupid because it doesn't provide ebough capacity to the places it serves or it is stupid because it is wasting capacity that is better used elsewhere.

Even though the trains in the morning peak through Farnborough are fault busy when full length there are some which are not full length and I have admitted that most people West of Basingstoke would switch to a faster train at Basingstoke. As such running through there are unlikely to be significant numbers of people who stay on the train through to Waterloo from West of Basingstoke.

The same would also be true of passengers from south of Basingstoke or south of Winchester if the trains were to join in the morning peaks (which is unlikely given the lack of a Farnborough call in either peak hour).
 

Kite159

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A shame that Farnborough hasn't got platforms on the fast lines. Although judging by how empty the Basingstoke stoppers are on departure from Basingstoke or arriving into Basingstoke it would be wasteful to extend them.

Otherwise you will get the good folk of Hook complaining that they can't get a seat
 

greaterwest

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A shame that Farnborough hasn't got platforms on the fast lines. Although judging by how empty the Basingstoke stoppers are on departure from Basingstoke or arriving into Basingstoke it would be wasteful to extend them.

Otherwise you will get the good folk of Hook complaining that they can't get a seat

You'd be very surprised during the rush hour, though everyone seems to want to go to Brookwood, Farnborough, Fleet, Winchfield and Hook rather than Basingstoke on those services so it's not particularly surprising that they are empty by the time they get there. There are faster ones that get there sooner from stations like Woking or London!
 

Kite159

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You'd be very surprised during the rush hour, though everyone seems to want to go to Brookwood, Farnborough, Fleet, Winchfield and Hook rather than Basingstoke on those services so it's not particularly surprising that they are empty by the time they get there. There are faster ones that get there sooner from stations like Woking or London!

But nobody would board the stoppers at Basingstoke if they wanted Waterloo, and vice versa, nobody would board a Basingstoke stopper at Waterloo if they wanted Basingstoke.

I see it on Saturdays morning when the first service from Southampton turns into a stopper after Basingstoke, so the passengers change at Basingstoke for the Ex-Salisbury 'fast' to get to Waterloo a good 30+ minutes ahead of that Southampton service.
 

The Ham

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A shame that Farnborough hasn't got platforms on the fast lines. Although judging by how empty the Basingstoke stoppers are on departure from Basingstoke or arriving into Basingstoke it would be wasteful to extend them.

Otherwise you will get the good folk of Hook complaining that they can't get a seat

That's kind of the point, the vast majority (west of Basingstoke) would switch to a faster service but it provides those going between places west of Basingstoke with a more frequent service for local travel without eating up valuable London paths where there may not be the demand.

Yes there would be those that stayed on but they would either be the minority or heading to one of the stations that it was due to call at.

It's not Hook (or Winchfield) that will complain about the lack of seats it's those at Farnborough, although that will happen anyway. Given that within Hart the majority (I.e. those in Fleet) said no more housing in Fleet (as part of the local plan) so now there are about 700 houses in Hook with planning permission and plans for 2,000+ plus houses in a new town at Winchfield.

Good luck getting a seat at Fleet or Farnborough in the mid 2020's, once a lot of that has been built. (Bearing in mind that 700 home with 2.4 people per home would increase the population of Hook by about 20% and the trains can already be fairly busy upon arrival at Fleet).
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But nobody would board the stoppers at Basingstoke if they wanted Waterloo, and vice versa, nobody would board a Basingstoke stopper at Waterloo if they wanted Basingstoke.

I see it on Saturdays morning when the first service from Southampton turns into a stopper after Basingstoke, so the passengers change at Basingstoke for the Ex-Salisbury 'fast' to get to Waterloo a good 30+ minutes ahead of that Southampton service.

However that's partly because of the station stops between Farnborough and Waterloo, it would be basically 15 minutes (assuming a zero minute change at Basingstoke), although by the time you've factored in a change it would be just under 10 minutes, close enough that some would be willing to stay onboard whist others would change.

As it is suggested that the train would run fast between Farnborough and Waterloo.
 
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