Potential HS2 services

[Bletchleyite]

HS2 is reporting Piccadilly-Airport as a 7 minute journey and the airport will want to use it as the main route for passengers landing at MAN. Even if HS2 makes it mandatory to book a reserved seat, NPR won’t and I doubt Birmingham trains will either.

Tail wagging dog alarm again. The issue is not compulsory reservation in and of itself, it is blocking seats that could be sold to people travelling to London.

I suppose selling seats standby at the last minute would avoid that. With 3 x 400m trains an hour you wouldn't likely wait long.

 

[Purple Orange]

Tail wagging dog alarm again. The issue is not compulsory reservation in and of itself, it is blocking seats that could be sold to people travelling to London.

I suppose selling seats standby at the last minute would avoid that. With 3 x 400m trains an hour you wouldn't likely wait long.

There is no dog tails going on here. I’d go as far as saying that only London trains will be operating under a HS2 ‘toc’ and terminating at Piccadilly, with the Birmingham trains incorporated in to NPR and have a very different service model.

 

[Greybeard33]

You been to Heathrow lately? It's a breeze. The building of T2 (Queen's Terminal) and T5 have transformed it from a dump to be avoided to in my view one of the world's best airports. No reason to trek all the way to Manchester, which by comparison has an utterly terrible reputation, particularly lengthy security queues (something I have never experienced at LHR since it was done up).

Manchester Airport Terminal 2 has been rebuilt and expanded to double in size under a £1bn transformation programme (reopening delayed until travel restrictions relaxed). There will be a Metrolink extension to the terminal (on the line that will later continue to the HS2 station) bypassing the long walkway from the existing station.

 

[Purple Orange]

Manchester Airport Terminal 2 has been rebuilt and expanded to double in size under a £1bn transformation programme (reopening delayed until travel restrictions relaxed). There will be a Metrolink extension to the terminal (on the line that will later continue to the HS2 station) bypassing the long walkway from the existing station.

Even though MAN will be unrecognisable by the time HS2 arrives, I doubt it will be an airport for people in the south-east. It’s catchment area might tend further south to Birmingham and further east, but the principle reason for the Manchester Airport HS2 station will be to serve the cities the current station serves and act as a south manchester parkway. What the airport HS2 station will also do is to enable the current station to perform the job it should be doing no now: be a terminus on a line for a Greater Manchester & North West regional S-Hahn style network, with all trains being typical 6-8 car commuter trains, with all stops along the styal line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even though MAN will be unrecognisable by the time HS2 arrives, I doubt it will be an airport for people in the south-east. It’s catchment area might tend further south to Birmingham and further east, but the principle reason for the Manchester Airport HS2 station will be to serve the cities the current station serves and act as a south manchester parkway. What the airport HS2 station will also do is to enable the current station to perform the job it should be doing no now: be a terminus on a line for a Greater Manchester & North West regional S-Hahn style network, with all trains being typical 6-8 car commuter trains, with all stops along the styal line.

The airport HS2 may well make "a London airport" is Birmingham - half the distance/journey time, a station I think nearer the terminal (?), no doubt a much cheaper fare and not all that much further out than Stansted. Indeed, as a Ryanair base it might well threaten Stansted to some extent.

 

[zwk500]

The airport HS2 may well make "a London airport" is Birmingham - half the distance/journey time, a station I think nearer the terminal (?), no doubt a much cheaper fare and not all that much further out than Stansted. Indeed, as a Ryanair base it might well threaten Stansted to some extent.

That really would be an environmental coup if HS2 allowed for the closure of an airport! Although Stansted is unlikely to close, as it's used for lots of the diplomatic flights and security response incidents when they think the security will disrupt Heathrow too much. Maybe Luton, as it's catchment is the area due to benefit most from the released capacity between London and Birmingham. Again unlikely, as it's a major maintenance hub.

 

[edwin_m]

The airport HS2 may well make "a London airport" is Birmingham - half the distance/journey time, a station I think nearer the terminal (?), no doubt a much cheaper fare and not all that much further out than Stansted. Indeed, as a Ryanair base it might well threaten Stansted to some extent.

No nearer I think - you'll have to get a peoplemover to International then the present one (or perhaps they'll be joined together) on to the airport.

That really would be an environmental coup if HS2 allowed for the closure of an airport! Although Stansted is unlikely to close, as it's used for lots of the diplomatic flights and security response incidents when they think the security will disrupt Heathrow too much. Maybe Luton, as it's catchment is the area due to benefit most from the released capacity between London and Birmingham. Again unlikely, as it's a major maintenance hub.

I don't think Stansted and Luton are much affected, because HS2 doesn't have a station in their landside catchment. Birmingham would have to turn itself into a low-cost hub to compete with those airports for London passengers, and I rather suspect with HS2 they'll go the opposite way. Eastern leg may be a threat to East Midlands, as it brings Birmingham airport much closer.

 

[Purple Orange]

The airport HS2 may well make "a London airport" is Birmingham - half the distance/journey time, a station I think nearer the terminal (?), no doubt a much cheaper fare and not all that much further out than Stansted. Indeed, as a Ryanair base it might well threaten Stansted to some extent.

HS2 could well result in the closure of an airport, but it’s more then number of flights that are made that is the issue. Close an airport and keep the same volume of flights means no impact from an environmental perspective.

What HS2 and NPR could cause is the consolidation of airports. Heathrow will be an easy change at OOC, which will have circa 8 tph to do the 12 miles to Heathrow. Birmingham Interchange is 1.25 miles as the crow flies to the platforms of the Birmingham monorail at the airport terminal. Manchester Airport HS2 is 0.6 miles to Terminal 2, which will be the main terminal for the airport, and is 0.9 miles to the current airport station, and 1.1 miles to Terminal 3, which will merge with Terminal 1, which is set to close. Therefore we could see a switch in PAX from Luton or Stansted to Heathrow or Birmingham and some Leeds/Bradford & Liverpool airport passengers sucked in to Manchester Airport.

As an aside, I’ve no idea why people think the Manchester Airport HS2 station is nowhere near the airport and won’t serve Wilmslow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That really would be an environmental coup if HS2 allowed for the closure of an airport! Although Stansted is unlikely to close, as it's used for lots of the diplomatic flights and security response incidents when they think the security will disrupt Heathrow too much. Maybe Luton, as it's catchment is the area due to benefit most from the released capacity between London and Birmingham. Again unlikely, as it's a major maintenance hub.

Replied here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/could-hs2-lead-to-airport-closures-or-consolidations-if-so-where-how.215080/

 

[Greybeard33]

What the airport HS2 station will also do is to enable the current station to perform the job it should be doing no now: be a terminus on a line for a Greater Manchester & North West regional S-Hahn style network, with all trains being typical 6-8 car commuter trains, with all stops along the styal line.

Unless/until NPR is constructed in full, I think the service pattern to the existing Manchester Airport station will be little changed. The other Northern city regions will want to retain their direct Airport services, rather than force passengers to trek across Piccadilly to the HS2 station for little or no time saving.

Even with NPR, I think the direct services from Scotland and Cumbria to the existing Airport station are likely to continue.

 

[Purple Orange]

Unless/until NPR is constructed in full, I think the service pattern to the existing Manchester Airport station will be little changed. The other Northern city regions will want to retain their direct Airport services, rather than force passengers to trek across Piccadilly to the HS2 station for little or no time saving.

Even with NPR, I think the direct services from Scotland and Cumbria to the existing Airport station are likely to continue.

I think there is a case for the Scotland services to be routed in to Piccadilly HS2, if the Golborn link is built. It would be interesting to see what time impact that has. Other than that, you’re right that there will be no changes until NPR is delivered and it is also why, if NPR is significantly downgraded to just TRU, or phased so that there are a number of years between HS2 phase 2b completion and NPR, there should be a link from an electrified Guide Bridge line to the flyover junction at Piccadilly HS2. Perhaps rather than 6 fast tph from Leeds, it could be 4 fast tph from Leeds (2 terminate, 2 continue to Birmingham), with the 2 semi-fast from Leeds going to Victoria then running fast to Liverpool.

 

[edwin_m]

I think there is a case for the Scotland services to be routed in to Piccadilly HS2, if the Golborn link is built. It would be interesting to see what time impact that has.

Assuming you're referring to a Scotland-Manchester service approaching via Golborne and Airport HS2 station to terminate at Piccadilly HS2:

Firstly, that is unlikely to be possible. The junctions south-west of the airport are planned to allow Manchester-Crewe, Golborne-Crewe, Liverpool-Crewe and Liverpool-Manchester but not Manchester-Golborne. There was originally going to be a connection from Manchester to access the rolling stock depot when it was going to be near Golborne, but that got deleted when the depot moved elsewhere.

Secondly, I did some back of an envelope calculations a few years ago suggesting the time from Preston and beyond to Manchester would be similar by either route. There might be a reason to run the Scotland trains that way to avoid congestion via Bolton and Castlefield, but the plans of HS2 and NPR will use all the capacity on the HS2 line through the airport.

 

[Purple Orange]

Why would people who currently use Luton wanted to travel half way across the country to access Birmingham or go across London when there's a perfectly useable airport on their doorstep, that is akin to people using Heathrow being told to use East Midlands instead. Its a daft idea especially more so because Luton is investing in more flights as well as 2tph non stop trains to London as well as the DART all of which have business cases that Luton wouldn't want to go to waste.

So while I can see HS2 making a dent in the Anglo Scottish corridor, I still think we be seeing flights between the two and I also don't see airports closing.

Are all Luton passengers local to Luton? Or do they come from a far wider catchment area that is ambivalent to which airport they use?

Assuming you're referring to a Scotland-Manchester service approaching via Golborne and Airport HS2 station to terminate at Piccadilly HS2:

Firstly, that is unlikely to be possible. The junctions south-west of the airport are planned to allow Manchester-Crewe, Golborne-Crewe, Liverpool-Crewe and Liverpool-Manchester but not Manchester-Golborne. There was originally going to be a connection from Manchester to access the rolling stock depot when it was going to be near Golborne, but that got deleted when the depot moved elsewhere.

Secondly, I did some back of an envelope calculations a few years ago suggesting the time from Preston and beyond to Manchester would be similar by either route. There might be a reason to run the Scotland trains that way to avoid congestion via Bolton and Castlefield, but the plans of HS2 and NPR will use all the capacity on the HS2 line through the airport.

Yeah it’s frustrating the link has been binned. I did read an article not long ago that was saying that TfN was pushing for the link to be reinstated so that Scotland services could use the HS2 route. Removing as many long distance services from Castlefield needs to be the way to go.

 

[Greybeard33]

Yeah it’s frustrating the link has been binned. I did read an article not long ago that was saying that TfN was pushing for the link to be reinstated so that Scotland services could use the HS2 route. Removing as many long distance services from Castlefield needs to be the way to go.

But I suspect that the 2-track WCML between Euxton and Wigan will be at capacity anyway, with 4tph of HS2 services plus freight paths.

 

[Hey 3]

But I suspect that the 2-track WCML between Euxton and Wigan will be at capacity anyway, with 4tph of HS2 services plus freight paths.

We could of course quadrify it, same with Crewe- Liverpool South Parkway/Warrington Bank Quay

 

[yorkie]

If anyone wishes to discuss the potential impact of HS2 on airports or domestic air routes please use the following thread:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/could-hs2-lead-to-airport-closures-or-consolidations-if-so-where-how.215080/

 

[agbrs_Jack]

I've done that too. If I *don't* want to get work done, I often go via Birmingham even when not strictly necessary and stop off to get food and a cup of tea. In that context a stroll from New St to Moor St or vice versa might be pleasant enough.

It really depends on the specific journey requirement as to what aspects have value.



Not the ones in bold in my view. Removing a load of trains from the route (2 Avantis and possibly one or more of the XCs) has the advantage of allowing a proper local service to serve those. The classic line service should indeed be slower (I'd have it stop at all three of Watford, MK and Rugby, though I believe the current plan isn't for that) but I wouldn't make it take on a Manchester area commuter role.

Congleton would benefit massively from a Birmingham service as many commute to Stafford/Wolves/Brum.

London service would be great but I personally would take any service that’s better than the current insufficient 1 tph Mon-Sat and abysmal 6 tpd Sundays!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Congleton would benefit massively from a Birmingham service as many commute to Stafford/Wolves/Brum.

London service would be great but I personally would take any service that’s better than the current insufficient 1 tph Mon-Sat and abysmal 6 tpd Sundays!

Congleton is not very big, and won't serve much of a P&R role once HS2 opens, as the car traffic will go to Manchester Airport HS2 instead. I don't see therefore why 1tph (though I'd up Sunday to the same) is inappropriate.

Perhaps extend the southern end from Stoke to Brum via Stafford as a local service, run using long EMUs and priced to push people onto it from overcrowded XC if time isn't a priority?

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Congleton is not very big, and won't serve much of a P&R role once HS2 opens, as the car traffic will go to Manchester Airport HS2 instead. I don't see therefore why 1tph (though I'd up Sunday to the same) is inappropriate.

Perhaps extend the southern end from Stoke to Brum via Stafford as a local service, run using long EMUs and priced to push people onto it from overcrowded XC if time isn't a priority?

Of course not as a park and ride.
Services at Congleton are primarily for people living there who want to travel for work and leisure purposes. The ‘car traffic’ is from other parts of Congleton.
No one is using it from far flung places as a P&R.
I think you’re underestimating the size of the town, whilst population isn’t everything, it should be noted that;
Congleton, 26k, 1 tph
Macclesfield, 52k, 4 tph
These clearly do not match for a place of twice the size to have 4x the service.

1 tph is completely insufficient. Any station with similar usage in London/Brum/Glasgow areas would have 2/3/4tph. Why should Tipton (364k usage) have 2tph and Congleton (333k) not? The ideal service would be something like;
Mon-Sat:
1 tph Stopper as currently
1 tph Manc - Birmingham semi fast

1 tph Sundays.

This is the minimum service Congleton should be having post-HS2 as the argument against increasing the current service has always been lack of capacity (except Sundays which should’ve been hourly about 5 years ago).

 

[BayPaul]

Of course not as a park and ride.
Services at Congleton are primarily for people living there who want to travel for work and leisure purposes. The ‘car traffic’ is from other parts of Congleton.
No one is using it from far flung places as a P&R.
I think you’re underestimating the size of the town, whilst population isn’t everything, it should be noted that;
Congleton, 26k, 1 tph
Macclesfield, 52k, 4 tph
These clearly do not match for a place of twice the size to have 4x the service.

1 tph is completely insufficient. Any station with similar usage in London/Brum/Glasgow areas would have 2/3/4tph. Why should Tipton (364k usage) have 2tph and Congleton (333k) not? The ideal service would be something like;
Mon-Sat:
1 tph Stopper as currently
1 tph Manc - Birmingham semi fast

1 tph Sundays.

This is the minimum service Congleton should be having post-HS2 as the argument against increasing the current service has always been lack of capacity (except Sundays which should’ve been hourly about 5 years ago).

I would agree completely. This is exactly the sort of service that HS2 is freeing up space for around Birmingham and Manchester. I could see the logic in the current Avanti and XC fasts and the Northern slows being replaced by a 4tph semi fast service, giving a regular interval efficient service between Birmingham, Stoke and Manchester, with each service taking a few of the smaller stations, but with all trains calling at the larger ones. The Birmingham - Manchester journey time is obviously irrelevant, and whilst a few minutes would probably be added onto Stoke - Manchester / Birmingham timings, the benefit of the turn up and go frequency would outweigh this (in my opinion). Obviously the HS2 Macclesfield service would also need to fit in to the pattern, but there should be ample room for this to run.