Potential investment in transport infrastructure to Cardiff airport

[Caaardiff]

Moderator note: Split from

South Wales 'Metro' updates

I thought it would be worthwhile to start a discussion on the South Wales 'Metro'. Basically, this is the scheme to enhance transport links across south east Wales. One of the key issues that needs to be addressed is what form of transport will be used on the Cardiff Valley lines network -...

www.railforums.co.uk

There are many many reasons why Bristol Airport is thriving and Cardiff Airport is struggling. Train access is way down the bottom of the list.
Any train spur to Cardiff Airport is a bonus, not a necessity, and will have very little effect to Cardiff Airports passenger numbers.
Its lucky to have a train link to Rhoose, that frequency needs to be improved first, or the bus link to go from Barry instead of Rhoose due to higher frequency of trains.
There's no direct link to Heathrow from the South West, you either change at Reading to a bus or into Paddington and back on the express.

 

[TravelDream]

There are many many reasons why Bristol Airport is thriving and Cardiff Airport is struggling. Train access is way down the bottom of the list.
Any train spur to Cardiff Airport is a bonus, not a necessity, and will have very little effect to Cardiff Airports passenger numbers.
Its lucky to have a train link to Rhoose, that frequency needs to be improved first, or the bus link to go from Barry instead of Rhoose due to higher frequency of trains.

Train access to the airport really would be a massive waste of money when there are so so many better uses for limited cash across the metro area.

Any money invested on transport infrastructure to the airport should focus on the terrible congestion around J33 and Culverhouse Cross. Public transport investment should focus on a bus link between Cardiff city centre and the airport.

I could go either way on the future of Cardiff Airport. A successful base by a low cost airline could really revive the fortunes of the airport, though it's never going to get to Bristol's numbers. The Wizz base was excellent news, but obviously wasn't to be this year with Covid. Let's hope Wizz sticks to their plans to open the base next year.

 

[Envoy]

Train access to the airport really would be a massive waste of money when there are so so many better uses for limited cash across the metro area.

Any money invested on transport infrastructure to the airport should focus on the terrible congestion around J33 and Culverhouse Cross. Public transport investment should focus on a bus link between Cardiff city centre and the airport.

The poor road network hinders the bus link - even though they have put in some bus lanes. Once they have 1 train very 30 minutes on the Rhoose line, would it even be worth having the bus link from Cardiff city centre to the Airport? The train also provides the fastest way from the Airport to Bridgend for points west - hindered as of now by 1 train per hour and only every other hour on Sundays.

The Welsh Government have objected to the expansion plans by Bristol Airport saying that SW Britain has enough spare capacity by using Cardiff Airport. Expansion plans by Bristol Airport were turned down and now it is going through the ‘appeal’ process. The trouble is that the WG have done nothing to improve access to Cardiff Airport by failing to build a new M4 south of Newport or a decent road to Cardiff Airport from central Cardiff as well as the M4. Having a better rail link to Cardiff Airport - even if only getting the frequency up to every 30 minutes to Choose station - would certainly help.

As I have mentioned before, the terrible congestion at J33 is because it is a strategic regional junction - effectively linking the A4232 expressway with the M4. No way should it be joined to the M4 by an elevated roundabout with traffic lights. It should be a free flowing junction with a flyover. The idea of having a bus P&R on the north side along with a business park is plain bonkers and will impede this junction further. I am all for rail transport and applaud the efforts being made by the WG with the Metro project, but with such a high population in this region, good roads links are also important. It can’t be right that most traffic to/from Cardiff Airport has to crawl along through north Barry or St.Nicholas - where the traffic effectively chops the village in half.

 

[TravelDream]

The poor road network hinders the bus link - even though they have put in some bus lanes. Once they have 1 train very 30 minutes on the Rhoose line, would it even be worth having the bus link from Cardiff city centre to the Airport? The train also provides the fastest way from the Airport to Bridgend for points west - hindered as of now by 1 train per hour and only every other hour on Sundays.

The Welsh Government have objected to the expansion plans by Bristol Airport saying that SW Britain has enough spare capacity by using Cardiff Airport. Expansion plans by Bristol Airport were turned down and now it is going through the ‘appeal’ process.

Yes, the airport isn't that well connected, but it's not that bad outside of the morning and afternoon peaks. Seriously, any infrastructure money in the region would be far far better spent on new commuter stations or a whole myriad of other things within Cardiff rather than a vanity project to the airport that very few will use.

Cardiff's current main use is as a holiday airport. Once/ twice a year holidaymakers are probably the most likely to use a car to get to the airport no mater which part of Britain we talk about. Also, anyone who knows the airport well would know that pre-Covid the busiest time of day for the airport was summer season from 4-7am. Not really suitable when the first train would probably not get to the airport until after 6am when check-in for the morning bank had already closed for most flights. People connecting from the likes of Merthyr wouldn't be able to get there til after eight when they'd all have already departed.

The Bristol expansion has a low chance of going through IMO. The council there very strongly opposes any expansion and there are some senior Tory MPs in nearby seats nearby who have swung to strong opposition. Even in the unlikely situation that ministers do approve it, it will be dragged through the courts for an age. The WG are right. The SW has significant capacity for growth. Cardiff, Exeter and Newquay are all underutilised. Oh, and if you want to see a poorly connected airport, Bristol is it. It can be a nightmare to get there from Bristol centre and even worse from South Wales at the wrong times.

 

[Envoy]

The Bristol expansion has a low chance of going through IMO. The council there very strongly opposes any expansion and there are some senior Tory MPs in nearby seats nearby who have swung to strong opposition. Even in the unlikely situation that ministers do approve it, it will be dragged through the courts for an age. The WG are right. The SW has significant capacity for growth. Cardiff, Exeter and Newquay are all underutilised. Oh, and if you want to see a poorly connected airport, Bristol is it. It can be a nightmare to get there from Bristol centre and even worse from South Wales at the wrong times.

The trouble is that both Bristol & Cardiff Airports developed from wartime airfields. If anybody was deciding to build a new airport, they would have chosen a site that would have been best placed to serve this part of Britain. Such a location would surely have been near the Severn Bridge. On the English side - near Patchway comes to mind with main line station and easy access to the motorways. (They are building business parks on this land). On the Welsh side, the site of Llanwern steelworks might have been ideal - again with a mainline rail station mid way between Cardiff & Bristol and served by a new southerly M4. (They are building houses and business parks on this former steelworks site and a rolling mill still exists at the eastward end).

 

[Dai Corner]

The trouble is that both Bristol & Cardiff Airports developed from wartime airfields. If anybody was deciding to build a new airport, they would have chosen a site that would have been best placed to serve this part of Britain. Such a location would surely have been near the Severn Bridge. On the English side - near Patchway comes to mind with main line station and easy access to the motorways. (They are building business parks on this land). On the Welsh side, the site of Llanwern steelworks might have been ideal - again with a mainline rail station mid way between Cardiff & Bristol and served by a new southerly M4. (They are building houses and business parks on this former steelworks site and a rolling mill still exists at the eastward end).

The Severn Bridge wasn't there when Rhoose and Lulsgate opened in the 1950s, of course.

There was an airfield at Filton, just north of Bristol. It's now closed and the land is being built on.

There were also proposals for a new airport on the Welsh side but they came to nothing

We are where we are.

It will be interesting to see how long the Minister for Climate Change will be prepared to keep throwing money at Cardiff Airport.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It will be interesting to see how long the Minister for Climate Change will be prepared to keep throwing money at Cardiff Airport.

Not forgetting that folk in North Wales have no interest in any developments at Cardiff Airport - they all use Manchester/Birmingham/Liverpool - or London.
Cardiff's catchment area might reach Aberystwyth, but no further east or north.

 

[Dai Corner]

Not forgetting that folk in North Wales have no interest in any developments at Cardiff Airport - they all use Manchester/Birmingham/Liverpool - or London.
Cardiff's catchment area might reach Aberystwyth, but no further east or north.

Transport for Wales helpfully providing trains direct to Manchester and Birmingham airports!

 

[TravelDream]

The trouble is that both Bristol & Cardiff Airports developed from wartime airfields. If anybody was deciding to build a new airport, they would have chosen a site that would have been best placed to serve this part of Britain.

There have been many proposals.
There are actually lots of pros for the Severnside Airport (https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/19014735.severnside-airport---dream-wouldnt-take-off/), but just like Boris Island, they are obviously all fantasy.
We just don't build new-build airports in this country. Almost all commercial airports are WW2 airfields.

Not forgetting that folk in North Wales have no interest in any developments at Cardiff Airport

And the point is? Most people have very little interest in Heathrow development - but it is still hugely important.

Realistically, no Welsh Government is going to shut Cardiff Airport. It will never happen.

 

[wobman]

Transport for Wales helpfully providing trains direct to Manchester and Birmingham airports!

And Liverpool plus valley on Anglesey

 

[TravelDream]

And Liverpool plus valley on Anglesey

There's no station at Liverpool Airport or Valley Airport.

 

[wobman]

There's no station at Liverpool Airport or Valley Airport.

It's a short bus journey from Liverpool South parkway to Liverpool airport and a short taxi journey from valley station to valley airport.

Cardiff is TFWs priority obviously but outside Wales nobody wants to travel there, so the TFW airport connection services are a high priority.

 

[TravelDream]

It's a short bus journey from Liverpool South parkway to Liverpool airport and a short taxi journey from valley station to valley airport.

Cardiff is TFWs priority obviously but outside Wales nobody wants to travel there, so the TFW airport connection services are a high priority.

On the first point, exactly. TFW doesn't serve Liverpool Airport or Valley. It doesn't serve Cardiff Airport either. The only airports it serves are Birmingham and Manchester.

On the second, a lot of people want to travel to Cardiff and South Wales actually and it's offensive to say otherwise. It only looks like TFW's priority as the majority of Wales' population lives in a very small part of the country. It's the same reasons by London seems to get the majority of big investments.

 

[wobman]

On the first point, exactly. TFW doesn't serve Liverpool Airport or Valley. It doesn't serve Cardiff Airport either. The only airports it serves are Birmingham and Manchester.

On the second, a lot of people want to travel to Cardiff and South Wales actually and it's offensive to say otherwise. It only looks like TFW's priority as the majority of Wales' population lives in a very small part of the country. It's the same reasons by London seems to get the majority of big investments.

How is it offensive to state a fact ? Cardiff airport isn't that big it had 1.6 million passengers compared to Bristol airport having 8.6 in 2019. Both easily accessible from Cardiff.

Why doesn't Liverpool South parkway serve Liverpool John Lennon airport ? Valley station being the same ?
The airport's don't have there own stations but do serve the airport, if you want to use the airport you go to that station and get the bus to the airport.

TFW don't run a rail system to serve just Cardiff, it's actually called the Wales and Borders franchise. The franchise was dictated by the DFT to serve many stations that are outside Cardiff, TFW even run stations in England. TFW run services to far bigger cities than Cardiff.

 

[TravelDream]

How is it offensive to state a fact ?

Why doesn't Liverpool South parkway serve Liverpool John Lennon airport ? Valley station being the same ?

I might have misread the first point. I thought you were talking about the city rather than the airport. Apologies if so.

No train serves Liverpool, Valley, Cardiff or Bristol airport. Yes, you can catch a bus connection and some like Bristol even have poor value through tickets, but that is not the same as actually serving the airport.

Your last paragraph is so blatantly stating the obvious, I am not sure it needs a response.
The significant investment is rolling stock being one example of things done outside of South Wales.

 

[johnnychips]

Yes, the airport isn't that well connected, but it's not that bad outside of the morning and afternoon peaks. Seriously, any infrastructure money in the region would be far far better spent on new commuter stations or a whole myriad of other things within Cardiff rather than a vanity project to the airport that very few will use.

Cardiff's current main use is as a holiday airport. Once/ twice a year holidaymakers are probably the most likely to use a car to get to the airport no mater which part of Britain we talk about. Also, anyone who knows the airport well would know that pre-Covid the busiest time of day for the airport was summer season from 4-7am.

This is a very pertinent point, which I keep making whenever anyone suggests a station for Doncaster Airport. People going on holidays will get people to drop them off; use a taxi (which will pick them and their heavy luggage up from their door); or if it is cheap enough, leave their car at the airport.

 

[JonathanH]

In their consultation for the December 2006 timetable, First Great Western published timetables which envisaged the Portsmouth services extending to Rhoose. Nothing came of it but it was presumably under consideration. Seems nothing has really moved since. It would have been a strange use of a 158 to effectively be linking Cardiff and Rhoose.

Noted here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/fgw-dec-2006-timetable.5412/#post-49947

 

[Class 170101]

People will still want to travel abroad regardless of climate change. Heathrow seems unlikely now to expand so perhaps using existing airports and runways better will be the way to go. This includes Cardiff and Bristol amongst others.

 

[Mike Machin]

Cardiff will always be a predominately leisure airport and is unlikely to grow substantially as it lies to the west of most of the UK’s centres of population, and these potential sources of air traffic are already very well catered for by more centrally-located airports which are easy and convenient to travel to.

It is unlikely to ever grow sufficiently to warrant serious investment in access infrastructure.