Potential Labour Party split (Split now happened).

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by thenorthern, 18 Feb 2019.

  1. woodhead

    woodhead Member

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    Trot, fan boy, an anti-this or that, Corbinista, Maybot ...
    All these labels and insults (and far worse) were once largely confined to excited loudmouths in pubs.
    Perhaps it would be more useful sticking to knowing and arguing about 'their' policies instead. Austerity, good or bad and for whom. HS2 a waste of money or essential infrastructure. Should we wait for evidence regarding Salisbury or take immediate military/sanction against Russia without saying he hates the West or, is anti-Russian.
    But I don't suppose the mass media, especially foreign owned press like the Sun, would allow that, so we lob bricks at each other instead of sorting things out.
     
  2. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    Also a Chancellor of the Exchequer who kept good control of government borrowing. He had a 'liberal' approach to certain other things. I used to see loads of MPs, including ministers, around lunchtime when I worked near Westminster in the 1960s and early 70s and I was always seeing Jenkins in his rumpled grey suit off to a restaurant which stocked his favourite claret, there to meet different people, but almost always female, of whom the occasional one might have been a journalist. No wonder Benn despised him, but then the feeling was mutual! An undoubtedly clever man, but one with few political friends.
     
  3. Typhoon

    Typhoon Member

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    Ever! Hyperbole surely. Counter-evidence - Sir Oswald Ernald Mosley.
     
  4. HH

    HH Established Member

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    It seems no-one likes a Woy. I was a bit too young (not often I say that these days) to really know much about him, but he generally seemed to make sense. Must have been the claret.
     
  5. thenorthern

    thenorthern Established Member

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    Quite a lot of people do like him I personally just think a lot of his decision have had a serious negative effect on the country.
     
  6. Mutant Lemming

    Mutant Lemming Established Member

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    Surely the term split is over dramatic - 7 out of 246 is a minor splinter group as opposed to a chasm.
     
  7. Cowley

    Cowley Established Member

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    A few more though and it could be kindling... ;)
     
  8. cactustwirly

    cactustwirly Established Member

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    But there is a significant amount of MPs in the Labour party, that are ready to resign if Corbyn doesn't change!
    Tbh he really needs to go, and be replaced with a more competent leader.
     
  9. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    You are, of course, correct. Hard to achieve with the hard core Corbyn fans now in control of the mechanisms of the party and many many more flooeded in to the membership.

    Notice how that grinning none entity Burgon has had a lot of media. I susepct he is being groomed by the back room as a future replacement.
     
  10. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    I can't help thinking that any previous Labour leader, with the probable exception of Michael Foot, would have been far better at holding the Tory party to account over its partisan and shambolic handling of Brexit. With the result that either it would have been done far less badly to the long-lasting benefit (or reduced disbenefit) of the country, or Labour would today be way ahead in the polls with a good chance of winning power.
     
  11. HH

    HH Established Member

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    I think many of those "flood ins" may finally be realising the nature of the beast. He might still be idealistic after all these years, but his ideals are not the same as theirs. But yes, the damage is done in that fellow Stalinists are now in many positions of power in the Labour Party.

    The time is ripe for a new party; whether TIG is that party is another matter. The "Gang of Four" included three well-known (and generally respected) senior MPs. Not sure there's three of those left in the whole Labour Party, let alone the breakaway group.
     
  12. cactustwirly

    cactustwirly Established Member

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    Which is why Corbyn needs to GO!!
    The sooner the better, and we might then have something of the Labour part left to salvage!
     
  13. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    I think it may be too late. That said Corbyn, in relation to this matter, isnt really the problem. The people he has enabled into positions of power within the mechanisms of the party are the bigger problem. They will determine who is the next leader.

    Those who joined because they bought into the whole magic grandad/oooooh Jeremy Corbyn thing are, perhaps, loosing faith in the man. Those who hoped for a brexit resistance have lost hope in him. Many have seen his inability to deal with the obvious antisemitic thoughts and postings of many of his fans as informative.

    However many of the new members are SWP/SLP/Socialist Party/ Militant/Communist types following an entryist agenda. They have exactly what the always wanted: Control of the Labour party.
     
    Last edited: 25 Feb 2019
  14. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    And the problem with that, of course, that is that that leaves the Tories with no effective opposition, because such a party will never win a General Election.

    And we all know what happens when the Tories govern unopposed.
     
  15. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    Yep - although the SNP are a much more effective and vocal opposition than Labour at present!
     
  16. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Well, quite! :)
     
  17. Arglwydd Golau

    Arglwydd Golau Established Member

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    [QUOTE="DarloRich, post: 3894794, member: 7788]
    However many of the new members are SWP/SLP/Socialist Party/ Militant/Communist types following an entryist agenda. They have exactly what the always wanted: Control of the Labour party.[/QUOTE]

    Without exploding, can you explain why you and others like you aren't/weren't able to stop these people then? By the way, it hasn't occurred like this in my local constituency or any others locally. What is SLP?
     
  18. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    SLP - Socialist Labour Party aka Arthur Scargill and his chums.

    The £3 army invited in by the leadership is the main reason for the change in the demographic of members as is the influence of Momentum which i think started with the right intentions but is simply out of control now. I voted against Corbyn at every opportunity ( i knew his views and history) and I vote against any Momentum baked candidate as a point of principle. Sadly many of the £3 army have dual affiliations with Momentum and follow their instructions slavishly. Look at the NEC JC9 slate. All voted in despite obvious issues with at least 1 candidate.

    That coupled with the increasing numbers of "moderate" people forced out of the party by various means and for various reasons leads to a situation where the lunatics take over the asylum! There is no balance now.

    it is odd that it hasn't happened in your local PLP. One must wonder how the Momentum backed slate won so easily at the NEC elections if that is the case. I suspect they are there. They are winning.
     
  19. FelixtheCat

    FelixtheCat Established Member

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    (My emphasis.)

    Perhaps that's how Momentum select their candidates. Whichever of them can withstand the highest temperatures from the heat generated by the anger of their members. The one who gets baked the most without withdrawing wins.
     
  20. WelshBluebird

    WelshBluebird Established Member

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    Corbyn won the leadership election without the £3 votes though, so I am not sure of the point of that comment!

    Does that not make you just as bad as anyone on the "Corbyn side" who is voting against any non Momentum candidates as a point of principle?

    Note I am not putting support on any side here, I tend to stay out of internal party politics and just want someone to get rid of the Tories (I almost don't care who, but certainly Corbyn is not worse than what we have now!) - just saying that any other member of the Labour party has just as much of a right to support their choices in candidates as you do, and if the ones you don't like win in democratically held elections, then sorry but, tough! You need to do a better job of convincing people to vote for "your side"!
     
  21. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    I am not a Member of Momentum.

    Did he? I am not so sure. I am sure i saw figures showing that long term members voted against him and newer members voted for him. Obviously that is very general. The point is that the £3 army were given voting rights despite not paying full subs or doing the hard yards.

    maybe - but the views of Momentum do not represent my views or the views of the Labour party I joined.

    Corbyn facilitates long term Tory rule. Surely you see that? That is what I find so annoying. Lets not forget that in a 2 horse race against perhaps the most useless and least competent PM in living memory the Great Jeremy is often to be found polling THIRD!

    There is no interest in actually gaining power and helping people. None. To do that requires compromise and consensus rather than dogma. Compromise is Blairist therefore evil.

    Indeed - however I would prefer they paid the same subs as me for the same voting rights!
     
  22. WelshBluebird

    WelshBluebird Established Member

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    Yes, he absolutely did.
    I am willing to agree that the momentum (pun not intended) that the "£3 army" gave him may have helped him over the line (with some ordinary members voting for him due to being convinced or otherwise by them), but it is beyond any argument (look at the numbers if you want) that at least according to the actual votes, he didn't need the "£3 army votes" to win. It is also important to remember that a large number of those people did then join the party as full members (and Corbyn won a clear majority just among party members in 2016).

    And they may well say the same of you - doesn't mean either of you are right or wrong.
    I assume your logic is that because you have been a member longest, your views are more important? You may want to consider that people like Corbyn have been in Labour for years and years (indeed one of the things used to attack him and his supporters is saying they want to take Britain back to the 70's / 80's).

    This is probably the one bit I do partly agree with, but I think you are missing the mark a little.
    There is a massive issue with compromise, not just with the left half of the Labour party, but within politics in general. We are seeing that with Brexit, and in the Tory party. I don't think it is limited to Corbyn supporters, Labour (and you could say that you voting against anything to do with Momentum regardless of policy is an example of it too!).

    As for Corbyn "facilitating long term Tory rule", tbh if you remove Brexit I really don't think he would have been so much. A lot of the policies Labour stood on in the 2017 election thanks to the shift further to the left are popular with the public, and he did win more seats than Miliband did. Obviously this is impossible to know, but I suspect the 2017 election would have been even closer to a Labour win had it not been for Brexit (and yes, I know "what if's are somewhat pointless - still fun to think about though!).

    I do think he is toxic to some voters however, and that is partly down to his stance on Brexit (which I don't agree with either, though it would take a brave politician to set out an anti Brexit stance considering the Brexit views of a lot of old working class Labour heartlands), partly down to things from the past coming back to haunt him (I'm not being naive here - he has said and done some stuff in the past that , though at the same time I wonder if the media spent as much effort digging out stuff like this for all politicians, I wonder what we would dig up!) and partly down to how the media has attacked him (often with false or exaggerated stories).

    As to if he should go or not, I do have to agree that he should, but only really because of his stance on Brexit.

    As far as I am aware, they don't get the same rights though. Wasn't the £3 thing just giving you rights for that leadership election? For 2016 you had to pay £25. And that is all you get from it - the right to vote in the leadership election. For all other activities with the party I was under the impression someone would have had to become a full member. Apologies if I am wrong there though, but in any case, since when is what you pay linked to what voting rights you get? Those who pay a reduced membership fee (e.g. 20-16 year olds, or armed forces personnel, etc) get the same rights as a full fee payer!
     
  23. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    The figures are here: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ip-jeremy-corbyn-wins-landslide-victory-party

    In 2015 he polled just under 50% of the members vote but was miles ahead of the other candidates. Cooper and Burnham should have agreed for one to stand aside and offer the other a free run. 83% of the £3 army voted for Corbyn.

    in 2017 the opposition was of, frankly, low standard and was at the time of peak Corbyn love.

    I say nothing of the sort. I simply set out my views which people are welcome to disagree with. That said the party has moved and not in a way likely to delvier electoral success. That matters to me but clearly doesn't to many others.

    The problem is that these people are not going to win! i don't mind the domestic policy slate ( security i think is shaky and foreign policy is governed by one thing: Palestine) but don't think those backing it have a chance of winning power. They need to go if we want to win

    Corbyn did well in 2017 on the back of free tuition, Tory old person annoyance and people hopeful he would stop Brexit. That wont happen again. We need seats in SCotland. See any hope we might win them? We need seats in Middle England. See any hope we might win them?

    They wont find much with May all she has done wrong is run through a wheat field. It doesn't take much to finds out what Corbyn stands for. He is toxic to many, many people because of these positions. It is all an MSM smear mind. They hardly have to invent stories. He is a walking own goal! How many serious politicians go to a memorial for terrorist murders then try to pretend they didn't despite e evidence to the contrary, then say OK i did go but i didn't take part! What a roaster!
     
  24. adrock1976

    adrock1976 Established Member

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    Don't forget both David Cameron and Theresa May have visited Saudi Arabia (whose governments openly beheads people in open view, and was possibly the catalyst for the beginnings of ISIS in Syria) to sell arms which are being used in the present ongoing conflict in Yemen. Also, both have also done arms deals with the Israeli Government (who flouts every single United Nations resolution that has been passed in particular to withdraw from occupied territory and revert to the 1967 borders that were agreed, and used white phosphorous which is against international law in the 2010/11 attacks on occupied territory) in recent years.
     
  25. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    Sigh. Whataboutery. it is dull and boring. What does that have to do with anything here?
     
    Last edited: 25 Feb 2019
  26. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    Actually, Michael Foot on song would probably have excoriated the Maybot and her motley hangers-on far better, verbally, than perhaps any other Labour leader. He was , after all, renowned as a Commons orator, his description of Norman Tebbit as being 'a semi-housetrained polecat' still rankles with that subject, I believe, which shows forty years on that it really hit home! Comparisons between Foot and Corbyn are erroneous. Yes, both could be described as 'left wing': both have a history of rejection of a nuclear deterrence, but there the similarities end. Foot was no pacifist: he was a leading writer on the Daily Express before the Second World War when it took a principled stand against appeasement of Hitler, unlike the Rothermere Daily Mail. Later on, more than any other contemporary British politician, with the possible exception of Paddy Ashdown, he passionately believed in military intervention in the Balkans in order to prevent genocide. Although he was against the UK's entry to the Common Market, he came to believe in later life that the country was better off within the EU, rather than without. No comparison to Corbyn then, a man of limited intellectual capacity whose failings become more apparent by the day.
     
  27. adrock1976

    adrock1976 Established Member

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    You're the one who mentioned terrorists in your previous post did you not? It is all in black and white, as can be clearly seen in the final paragraph.
     
  28. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    Do you really want to play this game about Corbyn? Really? Yeah! Corbyn goes to memorials for murders and terrorists but whataabout Tories. God it is dull.

    The obsession Corbyn and his cultists have with Palestine is completely baffling to real people. We worry about schools and hospitals and policemen and putting food on the table. If you want to worry about nice to haves be my guest but it shows exactly why Corbyn isnt serious about winning power. Right on student politics and protest is more important. It sickens me becuase it abandons those most in need in society.
     
    Last edited: 25 Feb 2019
  29. 3141

    3141 Established Member

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    Labour did remarkably well in the 2017 election. Weren't they 17 points behind the Tories at the start of campaign? If they'd had a week longer they might well have gained enough further seats to have been able to form a coalition with the SNP.

    I don't know what shape the Tories are going to be in by the time of the next election. Only three of their MPs have formally left so far, but once Brexit is settled, as I assume it will be, there will be a lot of vicious recriminations from Brexiteers claiming they've been betrayed, leading most probably to further splits. Their overall performance over the past two years doesn't offer much of a recommendation for another five years in government. (That's not to say that Labour would have managed Brexit much better - I bet Corbyn and co are really glad they didn't have to try.)

    In addition, I think there will be many voters who want "change", and many younger voters will have no memory of a Labour government and little idea of a what a left-wing government might be like.

    So I wouldn't be at all confident in thinking that "such a party will never win a General Election". I fear that it might.
     
  30. Jonny

    Jonny Established Member

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    Unfortunately, Labour made promises that they couldn't keep. Look at the state of Brown-era ENTCS, which is at risk of collapse as well as being, quite frankly, the moral equivalent of bribery. Even those that they would have kept, they will wreak significant damage in the process including the trust in private property. Anyone over about 30 will have been on the receiving end of Blair-Brown "stealth taxes" will have little problem conceiving that Corbin and his clowns will be even worse.

    As for left-wing governments, a field trip to Venezuela would be in order... oh wait...
     

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