• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Potential Labour Party split (Split now happened).

Status
Not open for further replies.

adrock1976

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2013
Messages
4,450
Location
What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Can we stop viewing everything in black and white, right and wrong, views?
The reality is a lot more nuanced.

Yes, some antisemitism is more "cloaked" than others, and yes some criticism of the state of Israel is just antisemitism being hidden away. However there are legitimate concerns about how Israel operates, and pointing those out in a legitimate way is not at all antisemitic. Personally, I have still yet to see any evidence at all of institutionalized antisemitism within the Labour party. That isn't to say there have been incidents of antisemtism, or that there aren't some people within the party who hold such views, or that there haven't been some horrible abuse (that needs to be stamped out). But to say it is institutionalized is a massive claim, as would claiming that there isn't any antisemitism at all.

And as for calling Corbyn a terrorist etc, I think people have to remember that peace needs people to meet in the middle even if you don't like it. People don't seem to be having a go at Blair etc for talking to some not very nice characters during the process of the Good Friday agreement for example, despite some of the people involved!

I was about to post something similar in that David Cameron and Theresa May have had meetings with the Saudi Arabia government, with the difference being for Cameron and May to sell arms to that are presently being used in the ongoing Yemenese conflict. Also, similar meetings apply to Bahrain and the Sultan of Brunei where arms deals were signed.

Regarding Palestine, the widely held position is that the Israeli Government should comply with United Nations resolutions to withdraw from the Golan Heights, West Bank, and other occupied territory, and implement and stick to the borders that were agreed to back in 1967.

Also, whether you like or dislike Jeremy Corbyn, he is one of those rare polititains where he has always stuck to his principles and has never sold out, and has upheld the values of the Labour Party of what it was originally founded for. Contrast that to the former East Kilbride MP Adam Ingram, who for years was a multilateralist, but sold out his principles and although Ingram retired at the 2010 General Election, he can be found with involvements of various arms companies. Also, the only time you saw Ingram out and about in East Kilbride was whenever there was an election campaign going on.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

433N

Guest
Joined
20 Jun 2017
Messages
752

Yes, I've seen that before but I just don't think it's very good.
For example

"...criticism of Israel similar to that levelled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic"

and

"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis"

... but if it is valid to draw comparisons between the contemporary policies of other countries with the Nazis then why not Israel ?
 

Ken H

On Moderation
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
6,297
Location
N Yorks
No the problem is people who can't understand the difference between anti semitism and anti zionism. That is the problem. Criticising the Jewish people and criticising Israel are two completely different things. So many people don't understand this. Saying that Israel is a fake illegitimate apartheid terrorist state is not anti semitism. Saying that Israel should not exist and all land should be given back to Palestine is not anti semitism. Criticising the daily mass murder of the Palestinians by the IDF terrorists is not anti semitism. In none of those things have i said anything against the Jewish people.

If you are using that logic then that would also mean that criticising Saudi Arabia is anti Muslim or criticising the USA is anti Christian or criticising India is anti Hindu etc etc etc. But nobody ever says that.

People need to realise the difference between criticising the state of Israel and zionism and criticising the Jewish people and being anti semitic. It is two completely different things.

I suggest you look up the Neturei Karta who are a group of Jewish people who are anti Israel and anti Zionist and have supported Jeremy Corbyn and are against the existence of Israel. So even many Jewish people are against Israel and against zionism.

The real problem is the zionists and the pro Israel lobby who have a huge amount of control over the UK and USA and most western countries unfortunately. These are the people who are always causing problems and trying to accuse anyone of being anti semitic if they criticise Israel or criticise zionism. These people are the real problem. These are the people who we need to get out of our politics.


Why shouldnt israel exist?

It was created as the result of a UN resolution, which asked for a 2 state solution, a Jewish state and an Arab one. The jews took it up and started Israel, the Arabs didnt and attacked israel on its first day of existence.
(I know Israel did not exist till 1948, but below I will refer to Israel, meaning the territory that is now Israel.)
And who are these 'Palestinians'? What is now Israel was part of the Ottoman Empire. In 1870 Israel was an undeveloped derelict wasteland. There was not a massive indigenous Arab population.
Jew hatred in Europe led Jews to migrate to Israel from 1870 onwards. They brought technology to enable them to make a living in a harsh environment, and to create economic growth. Arabs were attracted to the area to take part in that growth, and it is the descendants of those migrants, largely Egyptian, that are todays Palestinians.

Israel is the size of Wales in a caliphate that extends from Indonesia to the Atlantic. But it is surrounded by people who are told to hate them in a book written in the 7th century. Many states seek to destroy Israel.

And in that environment we are surprised that have a effective defence force, for they know that if they are not awake 24/7 of the dangers from within the middle east, their country will be destroyed. And they know getting retaliation in first wins wars.

lastly, Israel is a democracy. it allows non Jews to vote and sit in their parliament. it does not discriminate against homosexuals.

OK Israel is not perfect. But how would the UK be if we were a protestant country surrounded by aggressive catholic countries who attacked our territory & fired weapons indiscriminately at our cities for the last 71 years?

I'm not Jewish, atheist actually, brought up CofE, but 30% of the kids at my secondary school were Jewish and some are still my friends.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,851
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Regarding Palestine, the widely held position is that the Israeli Government should comply with United Nations resolutions to withdraw from the Golan Heights, West Bank, and other occupied territory, and implement and stick to the borders that were agreed to back in 1967.

I don't believe there is anything anti-Semitic about that per-se. However, waving it around to make a point beyond the simple one of territory could be, if you see what I mean, or bringing it up in irrelevant conversations.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,085
Tom Bower's new biography of Jeremy Corbyn 'Dangerous Hero' will help ensure that a Labour Party led by him will never gain power. For anyone who hasn't heard of Bower he has an impeccable record in taking to task some important figures, in politics, in business, and in both over decades. His unauthorised biography of the crooked businessman and sometime Labour MP Robert Maxwell probably made his name and even the notoriously litigious Maxwell was unable to prevent publication of the expose, three or four years before his mysterious death. He later penned a book on Geoffrey Robinson, MP, Maxwell and New Labour and more recently 'Broken Vows' about Tony Blair's premiership, so any attempt to portray him as a Blairite can be ridiculed. Conrad Black, before his imprisonment for fraud, and Richard Branson were also subjects of biographies who sued for libel and lost!

I haven't read all the book yet (it's not officially published until Thursday) but there's forensic detail about many aspects of Jezza's unexpected rise to prominence/notoriety. Bower considers that one of his problems is that he's not very bright and has no intellectual curiosity. He has almost certainly never read, or even opened, a book since his schooldays, for instance. A plausible explanation on his apparent imperviousness to anti-semitism is also offered, based on his first job after school, a minor post in the National Union of Garment Makers. Most damning of all, Bower concludes that, if he gained power, Corbyn and his successors would never cede it, as 'Marxists never hold free elections again.'
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,768
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Most damning of all, Bower concludes that, if he gained power, Corbyn and his successors would never cede it, as 'Marxists never hold free elections again.'

Must admit I do find things like swearing oaths of allegiance rather sinister. Of course it's sometimes not readily clear what is truth and what is the press. Nonetheless I find Corbyn sufficiently sinister not to wish to take the risk.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,085
Must admit I do find things like swearing oaths of allegiance rather sinister. Of course it's sometimes not readily clear what is truth and what is the press. Nonetheless I find Corbyn sufficiently sinister not to wish to take the risk.
I heard McDonnell say it live on radio, though, as with a few things in recent months, he rowed back on it later. I have a friend who was a GLC councillor for part of Islington during McDonnell's long spell at County Hall and he says McDonnell was a 'fixer' who accepted (then) that he'd never make a front man: as an aside, he told me he's very aware of his lack of height, which I hadn't appreciated as his TV appearances are usually seated!
 

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
8,137
Location
SE London
I haven't read all the book yet (it's not officially published until Thursday) but there's forensic detail about many aspects of Jezza's unexpected rise to prominence/notoriety. Bower considers that one of his problems is that he's not very bright and has no intellectual curiosity. He has almost certainly never read, or even opened, a book since his schooldays, for instance. A plausible explanation on his apparent imperviousness to anti-semitism is also offered, based on his first job after school, a minor post in the National Union of Garment Makers. Most damning of all, Bower concludes that, if he gained power, Corbyn and his successors would never cede it, as 'Marxists never hold free elections again.'

Everything in that up to the last sentence looks like, if backed by evidence, it might be plausible (though I'm not at all clear what the connection between garment making and anti-semitism might be). But the bit about 'never hold fee elections again' just looks like an unsubstantiated absurdity (which in turn makes me suspicious of all the other claims). What's the basis for that? I'm not at all a fan of Corbyn - I think many of his views are naive and unrealistic - but I can't see any reason to believe his views are not democratic. Besides, how on Earth could a Government in the UK avoid having another election after 5 years? There's just no way such a proposal would get through either the Commons or the Lords.
 
Last edited:

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,194
Joan Ryan (Enfield North) has become the 8th MP to resign from the Labour Party.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47300832

Not surprising, and there may well be a couple more, timed to keep the story running. I’ve met her a few times, and she is a decent MP and a nice person as well. As is another of the 7 that I’ve met before.

Re Corbyn. I know a lot of people, traditional Labour voters, who now say they couldn’t vote for him because of (variously) lack of leadership, lack of state-craft, anti-semitism, Brexit (and more).

I couldn’t vote for him either, but not for those reasons. I’ve met him, and that was enough.
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
8,169
The talks some tories about to join...if thats happens I can see most people thinking red Tories and labour will bounce away from this.

This group will most likely end up sitting next to the lib dems to stop brexit.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,768
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
The talks some tories about to join...if thats happens I can see most people thinking red Tories and labour will bounce away from this.

This group will most likely end up sitting next to the lib dems to stop brexit.

So today we have Sky claiming 10% of voters would vote for this “independent group”. I find it amazing how fickle people can be. Seven (now eight) people defected, nothing apart from a loose binding of ideas, no real declared policies, and many of the group not well-known names at all. How many people would previously have heard of more than one or two of the seven?

I suppose it shows just how toxic all the three established parties have become. I think there might have to be a major Conservative landslide victory in order to get a more mainstream Labour opposition back.
 

433N

Guest
Joined
20 Jun 2017
Messages
752
I suppose it shows just how toxic all the three established parties have become. I think there might have to be a major Conservative landslide victory in order to get a more mainstream Labour opposition back.

[: twitches nervously at the thought :]

The last Conservative landslide victory which was allegedly a gimmee failed to turn up, if you remember - even with that evil Mr Corbyn at head of the opposition.

The gap between rich and poor in the UK was at its smallest in 1977 when both Labour and the Conservatives were 'more mainstream'. i.e. further to the left. Perhaps the British people will wake up to the lemon they've been sold by the obsession with free markets and small government to keep 'business' (i.e. multinational corps) happy.

Whereas families with one person working had the opportunity to buy a house 50 years ago, two people working all the hours god send have only limited opportunity these days.

Perhaps the Great British Public will demand a reboot soon. Isn't that what the victory for Brexit-showed ; even if the subject of the backlash was misdirected.
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,045
Location
North Wales
So today we have Sky claiming 10% of voters would vote for this “independent group”. I find it amazing how fickle people can be.

Protest votes, perhaps? Neither of the two main UK parties have been coating themselves in glory over the past year or so.

I'm interested in what the Lib Dems are saying about this new group. They've been the traditional home of protest voters for decades, and have described themselves as a centrist party. It seems that there's a new group setting up in the "centre", and ignoring them altogether...
 

Ken H

On Moderation
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
6,297
Location
N Yorks
Protest votes, perhaps? Neither of the two main UK parties have been coating themselves in glory over the past year or so.

I'm interested in what the Lib Dems are saying about this new group. They've been the traditional home of protest voters for decades, and have described themselves as a centrist party. It seems that there's a new group setting up in the "centre", and ignoring them altogether...
they said the winning of seats in Scotland by Tory and Labour was people voting 'anything but SNP' But it was more cany than that. People looked at who was most likely to take the seat off the SNP and voted for them.
What a shambles our politics has become where people vote so negatively rather than enthusiastically for policies.
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Had some Labour canvassers in my street this week, asked if they could depend on my vote in the May local elections - told them bluntly it depends on which party best fits my views.

I wouldn't vote for the LD party as they're far to much Pro EU for my liking, Labour well it's difficult to see Corbyn in power and as to the Conservatives, I think we see Ruth Davidson succeed Theresa May when she does step down.
 

furnessvale

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2015
Messages
4,582
Besides, how on Earth could a Government in the UK avoid having another election after 5 years? There's just no way such a proposal would get through either the Commons or the Lords.
By definition, an incoming Marxist government would have a majority in the Commons. Labour also have a natural majority in the Lords and I have no doubt they would be "leaned on" or abolished if required.

Our only protection would be the Queen refusing royal assent and I don't see the monarchy lasting long under a Marxist government either.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,851
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
By definition, an incoming Marxist government would have a majority in the Commons. Labour also have a natural majority in the Lords and I have no doubt they would be "leaned on" or abolished if required.

Our only protection would be the Queen refusing royal assent and I don't see the monarchy lasting long under a Marxist government either.

Corbyn is a fair way left, but I think suggesting he is Marxist is along the same lines as suggesting the Tories are fascist.
 

433N

Guest
Joined
20 Jun 2017
Messages
752
By definition, an incoming Marxist government would have a majority in the Commons. Labour also have a natural majority in the Lords and I have no doubt they would be "leaned on" or abolished if required.

Our only protection would be the Queen refusing royal assent and I don't see the monarchy lasting long under a Marxist government either.

LOL.

The Russians are coming to join all the reds under the bed ; textbook cold war paranoia.

I think we should be more concerned about the influence of the far right on the current government before cranking up the anti-left rhetoric.
 

Typhoon

Established Member
Joined
2 Nov 2017
Messages
3,516
Location
Kent
So today we have Sky claiming 10% of voters would vote for this “independent group”.
This might be a good splash for Sky but if only 10% cast their votes for IG, they would be struggling to get more than 1 or 2 MPs. 2015 election - UKIP had 12.6% of the vote and 1 MP. Until they get high 20s they will be little more than an irritant. And, of course, if this was just an on-line tick box exercise it commits no-one in an election. If I was a died-in-the-wool true-blue, I would say I would be voting for IG just to harm Labour (except if any Conservatives switch to them, when I would say that it would be the last thing I would do). It just fills 10 minutes on a news show between the death of a fashion icon and a record EuroMillions win.
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
4,923
Most damning of all, Bower concludes that, if he gained power, Corbyn and his successors would never cede it, as 'Marxists never hold free elections again.'

And if you can type that sentence whilst keeping a straight face then god help you.
Come on. Regardless of your thoughts of his policies and opinions, he is the democratically elected leader of the opposition party and a democratically elected MP. To suggest he would become a dictator if he were to be democratically elected PM is just ludicrous and has literally no evidence to support it at all.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,851
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
And if you can type that sentence whilst keeping a straight face then god help you.
Come on. Regardless of your thoughts of his policies and opinions, he is the democratically elected leader of the opposition party and a democratically elected MP. To suggest he would become a dictator if he were to be democratically elected PM is just ludicrous and has literally no evidence to support it at all.

Quite. He's as far left a mainstream politician as the UK has had in quite a long time, but I can see no evidence whatsoever to suggest that he proposes to rescind democracy or anything quite so ridiculous as that.
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
4,923
So today we have Sky claiming 10% of voters would vote for this “independent group”. I find it amazing how fickle people can be. Seven (now eight) people defected, nothing apart from a loose binding of ideas, no real declared policies, and many of the group not well-known names at all. How many people would previously have heard of more than one or two of the seven?

Of course, as there are only 8 of them, then 10% of voters would not be able to vote for this group anyway so polls like that are pretty useless in terms of predicting voter intent.
What they are useful for is to show how people feel unrepresented, from multiple different positions on the political spectrum.

I suppose it shows just how toxic all the three established parties have become. I think there might have to be a major Conservative landslide victory in order to get a more mainstream Labour opposition back.

I wonder what it would take to get a more mainstream Tory party back!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top