Potential Labour Party split (Split now happened).

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by thenorthern, 18 Feb 2019.

  1. tony_mac

    tony_mac Established Member

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    It looks like there is a 'requirement'
    https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/euro-area/enlargement-euro-area_en
    but, in practice, you can take as long as you like over it
    For example
    https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:52014SC0341&from=EN
    And I don't see any reason why the UK's existing opt-out wouldn't still be available - but trying to look that up is too much effort!
     
  2. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I would vote for that.
     
  3. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Probably an error, though up to about 20 years ago they didn't appear as a matter of course - you had to do at least the most basic research as to what the name of your favoured candidate was. You were helped with that with campaign posters which made the name more prominent than the typical simple "Vote Labour" etc you get now.
     
  4. swt class 450

    swt class 450 Guest

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    The constituencies of these MPs who have left really need to have byelections.

    Many people voted for these MPs in order to vote for Jeremy Corbyn and help Labour get in to power rather than because they actually liked these MPs. Many people who voted them did so because they were Labour and don't want a new blairite pro EU zionist run party in their constituency. These MPs are even against some or the most popular policies of Labour such as nationalisation. They are just another group of capitalists trying to mess up the country and work for the wealthy elite.

    These people are really no different to the Liberal Democrat party. I don't know why they didn't just join them. There is very little difference between them. I am just glad i don't live in one of their constituencies as i would be very annoyed if i did.

    There really needs to be a new law that if an MP leaves their party or switches parties then a byelection must be called immediately.
     
  5. overthewater

    overthewater Established Member

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  6. FelixtheCat

    FelixtheCat Established Member

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    If constituents feel as if they want one, they can petition for one.

    Numbers, please.

    Numbers, please. Further, most of these MPs have been openly pro-EU for many years. The constituents knew who they were voting for.

    Here is Mr. Umunna on nationalisation:
    Source: https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/09/02/chuka-umunna-jeremy-corbyn-nato_n_8076046.html
    Note that his objection is much more nuanced than your simplistic outline.

    I actually agree there.

    Well, why not start a petition?
     
  7. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Veteran Member

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    This clamour for demanding by-elections is quite humorous, given that the reason being that it goes against the electorate who voted them in when, of course, a number were facing deselection by the CLP - no asking the electorate there!

    Also, as OTW has provided the link, there is no precedent for resigning seats in this instance. After all, such people as Dave Nellist or Rupert Allason weren't expected to, and didn't, resign their seats when they were expelled or chose to defect. In fact, with the exception perhaps of some tactical examples (e.g. Carswell and Reckless wanting to push the anti-EU message), the precedent is to continue to serve the constituents irrespective of how they voted and then wait for the next election. DarloRich perhaps sums it up better than anyone....

     
  8. JamesT

    JamesT Member

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    Since we stopped using FPTP for European Parliament elections, there's no such thing as a by-election. You vote explicitly for a party, if the MEP resigns their seat then the party gets to choose the next person on their list to take it up.
    It's certainly arguable that if the seat 'belongs' to UKIP for the span of the parliament, Farage leaving the party should result in him having to resign as an MEP and UKIP choosing someone else.
     
  9. tony_mac

    tony_mac Established Member

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    They can't - there is no law that allows that.
    The cost of each by-election is around £250,000 - is it really a good use of money?
     
  10. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

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    They can still petition (gather names on paper, shout about) for a by-election, even if there's no legal mechanism for them to force one.
     
  11. tony_mac

    tony_mac Established Member

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    Well, yes, but I didn't think that was what being discussed - people can obviously petition for whatever they like, but it has no legal meaning.
     
  12. FelixtheCat

    FelixtheCat Established Member

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    I don't think it is, and I'm not advocating for a by-election. However, if the constituents feel they want one, petitioning for one is an option.
     
  13. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    Asking again: Does that include Jared O'Mara and Frank Field?

    one Tory, one Labour
     
  14. Xenophon PCDGS

    Xenophon PCDGS Veteran Member

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    If an MP decides to leave their party and follows the current trend into an Independent grouping, their former leader can pontificate all he/she wants about holding a by-election, but the MP in question is now free to tell their former party leader to shove such a statement where the monkey puts the nuts.
     
  15. Arglwydd Golau

    Arglwydd Golau Established Member

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    Well, from my point of view....yes, but it won't happen. I've always thought that anyone who leaves the party under whose banner they were elected should resign at the earliest moment if they cross the floor, but I understand why it is does not happen under our system.
     
  16. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    It doesnt happen becuase we dont vote for a a party unlike as we do (or did!) for European elections.
     
  17. WelshBluebird

    WelshBluebird Established Member

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    As I said earlier, technically true but in reality most people do vote for the party. Again this is why you get safe seats and the like. Not because of the MP but because of the colour they wear.
     
  18. Arglwydd Golau

    Arglwydd Golau Established Member

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    Yes, I understand that, but as ever it is not always clear and I do think that in my lifetime the leader of the party has become a very much more important figure in voting intentions. It's been happening for a long time (pre Corbyn) and I don't recall that it was so prominent in the 60's and 70's. Oddly enough tho', my father refused to vote Labour during that period because he was a contemporary of Harold Wilson at University and didn't like him.
     
  19. cactustwirly

    cactustwirly Established Member

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    Yes this is why Labour are so bad at the moment, they have a completely unelectable Leader, who is also grossly incompentent.
    No wonder MPs have quit and set up a new party!
     
  20. HH

    HH Established Member

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    A bit like me and Corbyn.
     
  21. Ken H

    Ken H Established Member

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    you dont have by-elections for the Eu parliament. they are supposed to take the next person from the party list. Why those changing party havent been replaced is another matter
     
  22. tony_mac

    tony_mac Established Member

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    I certainly know people who voted for Luciana Berger on that basis - she was never a particularly popular choice with the locals.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...didate-parachuted-into-liverpool-1951962.html
     
  23. Ken H

    Ken H Established Member

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  24. Xenophon PCDGS

    Xenophon PCDGS Veteran Member

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    I wonder how Corbyn's comment about Shamima Begum will be received by the parents of the children killed in the Manchester bombing of the arena building
     
  25. Arglwydd Golau

    Arglwydd Golau Established Member

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    Probably not well, but of course she wasn't the bomber in Manchester. Corbyn did say, of course, that she should return to answer questions...quite right too!
     
  26. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Established Member

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    I'm not quite sure what you're getting at there, but for what it's worth, my understanding of being principled is (roughly) that you stand up for your genuinely held beliefs, in a reasonably honest way, even when it's disadvantageous for you to do so. That definition applies whatever your beliefs are.

    Maybe I've misunderstood you, but your paragraph seems to me like your suggesting that you can only be principled if your beliefs happen to coincide with certain set of viewpoints on the left of the Labour Party?
     
  27. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    You never knew the 'fact' because it ain't true! Many did lose their seats, of course, but some didn't e.g. off the top of my head David Owen and John Cartwright. Many LABOUR MPs lost their seats to Tories in the same election, which Margaret Thatcher fought on a 'patriotic, anti-Argentinian' ticket. Prior to that general election Roy Jenkins and Shirley Williams, two of the original Gang of Four, had put themselves forward in by-elections and won. History lesson over, all done without the 'aid' of Wikipedia!
     
  28. overthewater

    overthewater Established Member

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    It clearly show at least 23 Labour mps switching to SDP in 1981 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_politicians_who_have_crossed_the_floor which part of the fact isnt true?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/january/25/newsid_2506000/2506367.stm
    The Liberal-SDP alliance could boast 30 MPs by the middle of 1982. Most were former Labour MPs - only one Conservative crossed the floor - but the alliance did win a handful of by-elections.
     
  29. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

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  30. overthewater

    overthewater Established Member

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    Which part of the two facts are not true? I have clearly given evidence to prove this, even the BBC says it.
     

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