Potential New Central Pennine Rail Line (Colne-Skipton)

[A0wen]

Isn't it a case of rather than looking at current population, it should be looking at further developments and demand?

E.G if Okehampton/Tavistock and it's surrounding area are due to have some housing developments then reopening lines, just like new stations could be beneficial.

It's OK for anyone to say x place is 5 miles away but the reality is that the railways will be used by commuters if it is there at the doorstep. In my case, I live 2 mins from an old station - I would use that line daily had it not been axed but I will not travel three miles to the nearest station to commute.

Sorry, but your claims don't stack up.

What it depends on is where people are commuting to and from and how practical the alternative is.

In its simplest terms you could take Milton Keynes as an example - the vast majority of which is more than 2 miles from the nearest station. Yet because the key destinations are London and Birmingham, for many people driving the 3-5 miles to a station and getting on a train is eminently practical.

To go back to the topic of this - Colne, where are the likely employment centres? Take a look at a map:

Burnley - some will use the train, many won't because of where the stations are in relation to the areas of employment.

Blackburn - probably more attractive to rail commuting given the location of the station.

Northern / North East areas of Manchester - less attractive to use rail because the route in is the long way around via Blackburn and Bolton which would necessitate going into Manchester to come back out again.

Some *might* drive to Skipton, but it's not a major employment centre - more likely are Keighley or Bradford - which Selrap wouldn't address - because Colne - Skipton would take 15-20 mins and Skipton - Keighley another 15 mins. The AA reckon a driving time of 30 mins - so the train wouldn't offer any real advantage.

 

[HowardGWR]

As an aside, I don't think one can justify a new rural line just for commuting at peak hours. Funnily enough, I am just about to visit Skipton and in looking up facilities, I noted an express bus service to Manchester. I don't know what that is like to use, but it looks like even that market is catered for. I imagine people in that area do their comparison shopping in either Leeds or Manchester or they drive to these ghastly OOT centres like White Rose - or, they do what we do, order online.

 

[bbrez]

Sorry, but your claims don't stack up.

What it depends on is where people are commuting to and from and how practical the alternative is.

In its simplest terms you could take Milton Keynes as an example - the vast majority of which is more than 2 miles from the nearest station. Yet because the key destinations are London and Birmingham, for many people driving the 3-5 miles to a station and getting on a train is eminently practical.

To go back to the topic of this - Colne, where are the likely employment centres? Take a look at a map:

Burnley - some will use the train, many won't because of where the stations are in relation to the areas of employment.

Blackburn - probably more attractive to rail commuting given the location of the station.

Northern / North East areas of Manchester - less attractive to use rail because the route in is the long way around via Blackburn and Bolton which would necessitate going into Manchester to come back out again.

Some *might* drive to Skipton, but it's not a major employment centre - more likely are Keighley or Bradford - which Selrap wouldn't address - because Colne - Skipton would take 15-20 mins and Skipton - Keighley another 15 mins. The AA reckon a driving time of 30 mins - so the train wouldn't offer any real advantage.

I've not made any claims. Only that I would use the railways more if the beeching axe hadn't fallen on my local station. Would be cheaper for me and better for the environment. (Oh and if there hadn't been a lot of housing development on the old railways - I'd say my local line would be one that should've reopened.)

It's true that many will travel via rail rather than car if the accessibility is there. And it's true that developments in housing and business attract commuters whether is be leisure or professional.

I've always been a fan of build it and they will come. Improving local connections by rail and taking cars off the road is much more attractive to me than simply saying - drive cos there aren't any trains.

 

[snowball]

How sure are we that there has actually been house-building on the trackbed between Colne and Skipton? How recent is it? I think the only specific place where it's been alleged is Foulridge, but building on, as distinct from near, the route there is not visible on current OS mapping (on streetmap.co.uk) or on Google Maps.

 

[Starmill]

My idea would have solved the issue if a station being too far away to walk to, just saying...

But if you'd prefer to squabble over completely unachievable ideas then fine by me

Oh and by the way part of the Ribble Valley line was only recently doubled in 2015. No reason at all it can't support a half hourly service.

 

[A0wen]

How sure are we that there has actually been house-building on the trackbed between Colne and Skipton? How recent is it? I think the only specific place where it's been alleged is Foulridge, but building on, as distinct from near, the route there is not visible on current OS mapping (on streetmap.co.uk) or on Google Maps.

To be fair, I didn't say there had been housebuilding on the formation, but if you look on Google earth you'll see immediately after Colne station you have the Leisure Centre's land covering the formation and the road immediately after that, which would not have existed then.

It also looks like there is building on the line just after Elslack Lane near Skipton as well.

 

[snowball]

To be fair, I didn't say there had been housebuilding on the formation

I didn't suggest you did. I just remembered that somebody did. It turns out it was Bevan Price in post #72.

Moreover, the former tracbed at Foulridge is now covered by housing, which would need to be purchased & removed.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I think this dead horse has been metaphorically flogged enough.

Though "Rail" comic (which I must cancel for health and blood pressure reasons), will no doubt keep championing it , saying that half the world supports it , etc etc , - maybe there should be a crowd funding excercise......

 

[PR1Berske]

This thread has been one of the strongest and most interesting on this forum for some time.

Reading through the replies certainly weakens the argument for reopening the line. Logistically and, most importantly, financially, returning the line to the network seems highly unlikely.

As a supporter of the project, broadly speaking, I certainly do accept that this scheme seems to have virtually no chance of ever coming into being. Sometimes it is strengthening to admit dreams as just that, dreams.

 

[yorkie]

Just a reminder this thread is to discuss the Colne - Skipton route, if you wish to discuss another matter (such as the merits of any other route) please use another thread. Thanks.

 

[philthetube]

To be fair, I didn't say there had been housebuilding on the formation, but if you look on Google earth you'll see immediately after Colne station you have the Leisure Centre's land covering the formation and the road immediately after that, which would not have existed then.

It also looks like there is building on the line just after Elslack Lane near Skipton as well.

I think this is a portakabin, when I walked the track about 10 years ago it was used as as a bike repair shed.

 

[A0wen]

I think this is a portakabin, when I walked the track about 10 years ago it was used as as a bike repair shed.

If you mean the latter - it's grown a bit... take a look at Google Earth a company called Brooksbank Industries have what looks to be a reasonable sized unit on the trackbed.

At the Colne end it looks like a hard outdoor playing field - so not insurmountable, but the dual-carriageway after that might be more problematic.

 

[Grumpy]

There is an earlier comment to the effect that Colne is a run down depressed area. It gives me the opposite impression-the town centre always seems to be thriving with hardly any empty/boarded up shops. Similarly the area along the by-pass seems to be commercially very active. The houses seem cared for.

One problem with the railway at Colne is that it's hardly in Colne. The station occupies a site well to the west of the town centre and well away from the main residential areas and extending to Skipton would do nothing for this.

The Motorway running West towards Preston gives easy and fast journeys by car which makes rail usage of last resort-Colne to Preston by car takes not much more than half the rail journey time.
This morning at 9am there were only 2 cars in the station car park-hardly a sign of a facility of much use to the local community.

Yet Colne and Nelson have some potential-their combined populations are approx. three times that of Clitheroe but Clitheroe generates more rail users.

The measures suggested by Bevan Price to rejuvenate the services in East Lancs would seem to have considerably more benefit for the residents of Colne and Nelson than the proposed reopening.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The Motorway running West towards Preston gives easy and fast journeys by car which makes rail usage of last resort-Colne to Preston by car takes not much more than half the rail journey time.

Yes the M65 which was extended 28 years ago now IIRC. There were even proposals at one time to take it even further east to link up with other motorways in the area.

All about political will and who will win out - road or rail.

 

[The Planner]

Indeed, the M650

 

[muddythefish]

There is an earlier comment to the effect that Colne is a run down depressed area. It gives me the opposite impression-the town centre always seems to be thriving with hardly any empty/boarded up shops. Similarly the area along the by-pass seems to be commercially very active. The houses seem cared for.

One problem with the railway at Colne is that it's hardly in Colne. The station occupies a site well to the west of the town centre and well away from the main residential areas and extending to Skipton would do nothing for this.

The Motorway running West towards Preston gives easy and fast journeys by car which makes rail usage of last resort-Colne to Preston by car takes not much more than half the rail journey time.
This morning at 9am there were only 2 cars in the station car park-hardly a sign of a facility of much use to the local community.

Yet Colne and Nelson have some potential-their combined populations are approx. three times that of Clitheroe but Clitheroe generates more rail users.

The measures suggested by Bevan Price to rejuvenate the services in East Lancs would seem to have considerably more benefit for the residents of Colne and Nelson than the proposed reopening.

I used the Colne - Skipton line many times in the late 1960s for journeys from Blackburn to Leeds with a change at Skipton (the Copy Pit route was freight only in those days), and the train was always well patronised as far as Colne but less so on the Skipton section. The Skipton line saw a fair amount of freight too

Colne was a big station in those days with ample provision for freight and parcels traffic heading east and west. The present station presents a sorry sight and the service is poor compared to those days. A semi-fast service to Burnley/Accrington/Blackburn/Preston/Blackpool missing out the smaller stations would help immensely as would electrifcation of all the East Lancs lines - surely not out of the question at some point in the future.

 

[quantinghome]

Report of the latest SELRAP meeting: http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...-opening-of-skipton-colne-rail-link-1-8854457

Two major Yorkshire businesses have backed plans to re-open an 11-and-a-half mile rail link between Skipton and Lancashire which has been closed for nearly five decades.

Representatives from Drax and Skipton Building Society were both at a recent meeting in Westminster which was seen by campaigners as a turning point in their fight to re-open the Skipton-Colne line.

The Westminster meeting was attended by MPs from both parties, as well as representatives from Lancashire, Bradford and North Yorkshire councils, professional services firm Arup and Peel Ports in Liverpool.

Graham Backhouse, head of Supply Chain and Logistics at Drax, whose UK operations includes Drax Power Station, between Selby and Goole said the route “has the potential to have a major impact in improving rail links right across the country for passengers and freight, helping businesses and boosting the UK’s economy”....

I don't think Skipton Building society have much sway in these things, but Peel ports and Drax are bigger players, and TfN appear to be in support. Has something fundamentally changed in the traffic potential for this link to make it viable, or is this more of the same hopes and dreams from SELRAP?

 

[PR1Berske]

That does read like a SELRAP press release rather than an update to the likelihood of the line ever being built.

Like the Burscough Curves, you can quite confidently call this plan stone-dead unless a miracle, and a six figure miracle at that, were to suddenly happen.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Six figures? That's small change for Government departments. You're talking at least eight figures for Skipton-Colne, very possibly nine.

 

[PR1Berske]

Six figures? That's small change for Government departments. You're talking at least eight figures for Skipton-Colne, very possibly nine.

Point taken, and a fair comment.

 

[deltic08]

Point taken, and a fair comment.

That does read like a SELRAP press release rather than an update to the likelihood of the line ever being built.

Like the Burscough Curves, you can quite confidently call this plan stone-dead unless a miracle, and a six figure miracle at that, were to suddenly happen.

Reinstatement of the Waverley line, 30 miles, cost £300m approx. so Skipton-Colne would be £120m approx. Considering dual carriageway roads are now costing £30-£35m per mile, I say damn good value for the money as a new road would cost three times the amount and be much more polluting.
Stone traffic from Grassington westwards all goes by road. This could all convert to rail.
Biomass from Liverpool to Drax this way is a much flatter route than other trans Pennine routes so can load more with single loco. Standedge and Calder Valley will be at capacity within a couple of years on passenger traffic alone.

 

[philthetube]

Report of the latest SELRAP meeting: http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...-opening-of-skipton-colne-rail-link-1-8854457


I don't think Skipton Building society have much sway in these things, but Peel ports and Drax are bigger players, and TfN appear to be in support. Has something fundamentally changed in the traffic potential for this link to make it viable, or is this more of the same hopes and dreams from SELRAP?

Maybe they could provide finance Pretty sure they can't actually as a Building Society.

 

[47802]

Reinstatement of the Waverley line, 30 miles, cost £300m approx. so Skipton-Colne would be £120m approx. Considering dual carriageway roads are now costing £30-£35m per mile, I say damn good value for the money as a new road would cost three times the amount and be much more polluting.
Stone traffic from Grassington westwards all goes by road. This could all convert to rail.
Biomass from Liverpool to Drax this way is a much flatter route than other trans Pennine routes so can load more with single loco. Standedge and Calder Valley will be at capacity within a couple of years on passenger traffic alone.

And how would they get to this magic line, presumably via the Aire Valley line and how much spare capacity is their on that line?

 

[YorkshireBear]

And how would they get to this magic line, presumably via the Aire Valley line and how much spare capacity is their on that line?

A reasonable amount of old S&C Coal freight paths are now avaliable.

And how would they get to this magic line, presumably via the Aire Valley line and how much spare capacity is their on that line?

 

[Bald Rick]

Reinstatement of the Waverley line, 30 miles, cost £300m approx. so Skipton-Colne would be £120m approx. Considering dual carriageway roads are now costing £30-£35m per mile, I say damn good value for the money as a new road would cost three times the amount and be much more polluting.
Stone traffic from Grassington westwards all goes by road. This could all convert to rail.
Biomass from Liverpool to Drax this way is a much flatter route than other trans Pennine routes so can load more with single loco. Standedge and Calder Valley will be at capacity within a couple of years on passenger traffic alone.

We've been through this before.

The cost of the Borders line when all costs are accounted for, was well over £400m at the prices of the day. Allowing for inflation that would be nearer £500m now. And that, let me assure you, is a very cheap railway.

Re pollution. As we have also been through before, new diesel railways will cause more local pollution than new roads, unless the trains are relatively long and relatively full. Both of which are unlikely here. And that is before the likely 'electrification' of much of road transport over the next 2 decades. But let's not have that debate again.

Value for money is an equation between costs and benefits. The benefits of this proposal simply do not stack up.

 

[deltic08]

We've been through this before.

The cost of the Borders line when all costs are accounted for, was well over £400m at the prices of the day. Allowing for inflation that would be nearer £500m now. And that, let me assure you, is a very cheap railway.

Re pollution. As we have also been through before, new diesel railways will cause more local pollution than new roads, unless the trains are relatively long and relatively full. Both of which are unlikely here. And that is before the likely 'electrification' of much of road transport over the next 2 decades. But let's not have that debate again.

Value for money is an equation between costs and benefits. The benefits of this proposal simply do not stack up.

Not counting all the money wasted on the false start, the cost of construction under the project management of Network Rail was £280m. Where has the figure of 25% inflation over the last four years or since opening two years ago come from?

You couldn't be more wrong in your pollution assumptions. Only 20% of air pollution comes from exhaust emissions. 80% of particulates are produced from wear to tyres, brakes, clutches and roads. The most dangerous are rubber wear particulates (nearly half a million tons annually from wear to 50m tyres) and tar particulates less than PM2.5 microns that can reach the deepest parts of the lungs on inhalation. They can be air suspended for days and travel for miles from source so there is no such thing as local pollution. Traffic outside the M25 pollutes London even if there was a total ban on traffic in London. (The biggest air polluter in London is bus tyres that wear at a terrific rate from being a heavy vehicle, stopping/starting and slow speed turning).
Tyre and tar particulates are known to have mutatogenic and carcinogenic properties and brake disc particulates have been found in plaques in the brains of dementia sufferers.
Electric vehicles will still produce wear particulates as will electric trains with disc brakes, but trains do not have rubber tyres and do not run on asphalt.

Just remind me of the BCR as I thought it was above 3.0 which is fairly high and higher than a new parallel road from the May 2017 multimodal study?
HS2 currently stands at 0.4 and should be cancelled with a BCR of less than 1.0

 

[deltic08]

And how would they get to this magic line, presumably via the Aire Valley line and how much spare capacity is their on that line?

Why do you call it a magic line when it is only a line? Does it make you feel intellectually superior and correct by trying to put down those who support reinstatement, and who are they who want to get to this line via the Aire Valley?

 

[quantinghome]

HS2 currently stands at 0.4 and should be cancelled with a BCR of less than 1.0

Can you point me to a source for BCR of 0.4 for HS2? Latest info I can find is 1.9 (2.3 including wider economic impact) for the full Y network: http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN00316/SN00316.pdf

I have previously considered that the benefits of this scheme are marginal for a passenger railway given the main population centres between East Lancs and West Yorks are already served via Copy Pit - the classic "solution in search of a problem". However, IF there is freight potential this may change the prospects of the scheme. Here are some quotes from the write-up in New Civil Engineer (paywall, so not linked):

One of the businesses keen to see it open is Drax Power Station in Selby, North Yorkshire. It says the line would reduce journey times to the Port of Liverpool from up to nine hours to less than three.
Drax head of supply chain and logistics Graham Backhouse said: “It has the potential to have a major impact in improving rail links right across the country for passengers and freight, helping businesses and boosting the UK’s economy.
“It will have a direct impact on improving our supply chain, allowing freight trains to travel much more quickly to the power station."

TfN interim strategy direction Jonathan Spruce said: “We have identified seven strategic development corridors in the North, one of which is the Central Pennines Corridor.
“We published this when we put out our position statement around our emerging Strategic Transport Plan in June, and we said there was clear evidence of a lack of east-west connectivity and resilience for passengers and also for freight.
“We are now working with our partners to understand fully what the key transport interventions are in each of the transport corridors.”
TfN would not comment on whether the scheme will feature in its transport plan, which will be published early next year.

The quotes above may just be companies and transport bodies making positive noises which cost them nothing - clearly there's no commitment yet. Still, it does make me wonder if this scheme is coming closer to reality.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Electric vehicles will still produce wear particulates....

Tyres and asphalt - yes; although in an attempt to eke as much mileage out of the battery as possible, low resistance (and consequently wear) tyres are often used. Brakes - absolutely not; properly driven, an EV uses its brakes hardly ever; the vast majority of braking is accomplished by regeneration. Only emergency applications and the last little bit to a stop use (and hence wear) friction brakes and produce particles. I saw one estimate that brake shoes in an EV should average 10x the life of the same in a conventional vehicle.

 

[47802]

Why do you call it a magic line when it is only a line? Does it make you feel intellectually superior and correct by trying to put down those who support reinstatement, and who are they who want to get to this line via the Aire Valley?

No I don't feel intellectually superior however if we are to consider reopening railway lines in England then I think a national strategy is needed and not some who shouts loudest type pressure groups which in my view should largely be ignored and treated with the contempt that many of them deserve.

If this route is going to be justified as a potential Pennine route for freight then it needs to be looked at in the context of the existing routes, potential HS3 and the overall freight and passenger capacity requirements for these routes.