Potential Scotrail 170 cascade

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TheWalrus

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If Scotrail releases all it's 170s in 2018, would it make sense to reform them into 4 an 2 car units? Then send 4x4car 170s to Southern to strengthen Uckfield services. 2 car units could be useful for Northern and TPEX services?
 
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WatcherZero

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Two car would probably be too short by then and just as wasteful to run them permanently coupled as it is with 2/3 unit Pacer formations or double sprinter formations.
 

47802

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If Scotrail releases all it's 170s in 2018, would it make sense to reform them into 4 an 2 car units? Then send 4x4car 170s to Southern to strengthen Uckfield services. 2 car units could be useful for Northern and TPEX services?

More pointless speculation at this stage, they could end up any where other than the units Southern has already leased, and if they did go to TPX why wouldn't they want 3 car units anyway since most of their trains are 3 car.
 

dk1

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We could do with some here in East Anglia. Finally eliminate single 153s & get the Norwich services extended to Stansted.
 

170401

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When they do go theirs going to be huge demand for them. Personally I'd like to see them go to the Southwest for the Cardiff/Bristol - Penzance/Weymouth corridors to replace the woefully inadequate 150 and 153's.
 

47802

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When they do go theirs going to be huge demand for them. Personally I'd like to see them go to the Southwest for the Cardiff/Bristol - Penzance/Weymouth corridors to replace the woefully inadequate 150 and 153's.

Not sure that's very likely given there will be significant numbers of 165/166's going to the South West
 

aformeruser

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Two car would probably be too short by then and just as wasteful to run them permanently coupled as it is with 2/3 unit Pacer formations or double sprinter formations.

I'm thinking 3 car 170s couldn't work doubled up on some Northern routes due to platform lengths. However, if you increase the service frequency then you may not need to use them doubled up.

For instance, if you increased the Mon-Sat frequency on the Mid-Cheshire line to half-hourly at least pre-8pm then a 3 car 170 would probably be fine for all the services. The same idea would work on the Buxton line, although you would need 3tph to Manchester in the morning peak and 3tph to Buxton in the evening peak (eliminating Hazel Grove terminators would free up paths to do that.)
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When they do go theirs going to be huge demand for them. Personally I'd like to see them go to the Southwest for the Cardiff/Bristol - Penzance/Weymouth corridors to replace the woefully inadequate 150 and 153's.

In theory the Northern and TPE franchise bidders should be best placed to get them.

Remember Porterbrook own the 50 x Scotrail 170s which Southern haven't already acquired. They claim they like long term deals for their stock which is why the 170/3s are going to Chiltern. While with many franchises not having long left to run there's only Chiltern, GTR and bidders of the next Northern and TPE franchise who can offer to take them on post-December 18.
 

47802

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So what I'd be proposing is 4 car sets and 2x2car sets. As I'd have thought on many routes 3 cars is inadequate, but 6 cars too much?

As far as TPX goes I would imagine they would be happy with 3 car units then they could easily sub for a 185 if needed, and double up to Six car if required, remember the 170's that TPX got were acquired second hand as 2 car units so they didn't have much choice in the matter, and 2 car sets might have been OK a few years ago on some services they are likely to be inadequate now. If some went to Northern then 2 and 4 car combinations may be better for some routes.
 
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SkinnyDave

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Not sure that's very likely given there will be significant numbers of 165/166's going to the South West

Not necessarily our(FGW) ops director was at Golden Whistle awards yesterday and in his speech said that FGW will be operating three fleets of trains and they only know for definite what one of them is... Very cryptic
 

Philip

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Are 170s banned along the Manchester-Bolton-Preston line? I don't think they've ever worked North West TPE services, yet they've occasionally worked Liverpool-Scarborough services amongst more regular workings.
 

Iskra

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Are 170s banned along the Manchester-Bolton-Preston line? I don't think they've ever worked North West TPE services, yet they've occasionally worked Liverpool-Scarborough services amongst more regular workings.

It's more likely that the drivers don't sign them along the NW routes than them being banned.
 

47802

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Not necessarily our(FGW) ops director was at Golden Whistle awards yesterday and in his speech said that FGW will be operating three fleets of trains and they only know for definite what one of them is... Very cryptic

Well given the gauge limitations of these trains (165/166) where else are they going to go?
 
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swt_passenger

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Well given the gauge limitations of these trains (165/166) where else are they going to go?

Well they can go anywhere they spend the necessary money on gauge clearance.

The idea that they cannot go anywhere else but the GW is something of an exaggeration and not really supported by recent events. As I've mentioned before, they were cleared a couple of years ago from Guildford to Basingstoke via Woking; and from Redhill to Selhurst, with no apparent infrastructure work being done at all.

It seems to me that if they can run on those routes, there must be at least some other routes that they can be cleared for relatively easily.
 
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sprinterguy

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Not necessarily our(FGW) ops director was at Golden Whistle awards yesterday and in his speech said that FGW will be operating three fleets of trains and they only know for definite what one of them is... Very cryptic
That would be somewhat at odds with Network Rail's programme of gauge clearance work for the class 165/166 fleets on the South West routes that has been costed for the current control period.
 

edwin_m

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Not necessarily our(FGW) ops director was at Golden Whistle awards yesterday and in his speech said that FGW will be operating three fleets of trains and they only know for definite what one of them is... Very cryptic

"For definite" may mean "relevant contract signed and sealed". I think the expectation is still HSTs to the West of England and 165/166s for their other diesel services.
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Are 170s banned along the Manchester-Bolton-Preston line? I don't think they've ever worked North West TPE services, yet they've occasionally worked Liverpool-Scarborough services amongst more regular workings.

If so it's probably a question of nobody having asked and done the paperwork rather than any major issue of compatibility. 170s were designed to go anywhere a 158 could go, though no doubt in practice it's a bit more complicated than that.

170s used to operate to Liverpool with Central Trains so are probably cleared for both routes between there and Manchester.
 

aformeruser

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If so it's probably a question of nobody having asked and done the paperwork rather than any major issue of compatibility. 170s were designed to go anywhere a 158 could go, though no doubt in practice it's a bit more complicated than that.

Indeed. The original intention was for 8 x 170s to be used on Manchester-Hull services and the 9th to be a maintenance/spare. However, with the TPE fleet being stretched further and it not being possible for 170s to only be used in 4 car formation it meant they finished up on South TPE as well.

As 158s, 175s, 180s, 185s and Voyagers are all cleared for Manchester-Bolton-Preston it would be very surprising if 170s weren't cleared.
 

route:oxford

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If Scotrail releases all it's 170s in 2018, would it make sense to reform them into 4 an 2 car units?

I don't think they will release all of them.

Transport Scotland have strong aspirations to expand and enhance services. It's far easier to introduce new and improved services when the stock is in place than trying to obtain additional stock.
 

aformeruser

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I don't think they will release all of them.

Transport Scotland have strong aspirations to expand and enhance services. It's far easier to introduce new and improved services when the stock is in place than trying to obtain additional stock.

Transport Scotland are not fond of the 170s and the franchise spec was written to include specific rolling stock requirements for each line which the 170s don't meet in some cases. They even go as far as saying toilets on board trains must not release odours in to the saloon, which possibly made bidders think twice about taking on the Voyagers currently with Virgin.

The agreement between Abellio and Transport Scotland is that all the 170s will be released once they have the extra 321s, the new Hitachi EMUs and the HSTs. There's even the option for some Sprinters being released if additional electrification goes ahead and the option for more EMUs goes ahead. However, overall the number of carriages in Scotland will be increased.
 

physics34

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Transport Scotland are not fond of the 170s and the franchise spec was written to include specific rolling stock requirements for each line which the 170s don't meet in some cases. They even go as far as saying toilets on board trains must not release odours in to the saloon, which possibly made bidders think twice about taking on the Voyagers currently with Virgin.

fully agree with the toliet statement. The small "broom cupboard" toilet in the 170s has seats just adjacent to it (just outside the door) and if you think about it, this is quite horrible really. Same as 375s/377s and many other stock types.

Just for the sake of a little bit of space.
 

SprinterJedi

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They even go as far as saying toilets on board trains must not release odours in to the saloon

Where does that leave the 158's as they are palpably disgusting ? The smell from both the Universal and Standard toilets permeates the saloons (on Scotrail 158s).
 

Scotrail84

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They need major investment. 401-424 will be around twenty years old when they are released. Some are in really bad condition. 170 failures occur every day and there was 3 or 4 on Saturday alone.

411 has been out of traffic for months now, heavily stripped up the depot. Even a coupler has been removed meaning it can only be moved from one end. Unlikely it can move under its own power. Several things have been used for spares for other units. Even one of the cabs is missing it's driving seat.
 

hibtastic

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I had hoped that some would be retained for Fife Circle services. The 158s are really not well suited there and have some of the worst seats I have ever had the misfortune to sit in. I am always relieved when a 170 shows up at Dunfermline rather than a 158.
 

Scotrail84

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I had hoped that some would be retained for Fife Circle services. The 158s are really not well suited there and have some of the worst seats I have ever had the misfortune to sit in. I am always relieved when a 170 shows up at Dunfermline rather than a 158.

158s and 156s are best suited for the circles. Turbos are no good for stop start journeys. They are designed for long distance runs at higher constant speeds. 100mph units that can get up to 90 max once or twice during their journey round the circle.
 

Wolfie

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They need major investment. 401-424 will be around twenty years old when they are released. Some are in really bad condition. 170 failures occur every day and there was 3 or 4 on Saturday alone.

411 has been out of traffic for months now, heavily stripped up the depot. Even a coupler has been removed meaning it can only be moved from one end. Unlikely it can move under its own power. Several things have been used for spares for other units. Even one of the cabs is missing it's driving seat.

Leases must surely contain some sort or maintenance and condition clauses...

As such that would suggest some very serious bills for Scotrail. Porterbrook will almost certainly expect Scotrail either to restore them to a decent condition themselves or to cough up sufficient money for them as owner to do so....
 

Scotrail84

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Leases must surely contain some sort or maintenance and condition clauses...

As such that would suggest some very serious bills for Scotrail. Porterbrook will almost certainly expect Scotrail either to restore them to a decent condition themselves or to cough up sufficient money for them as owner to do so....



I would imagine they are required to maintain the units. Faults and failures happen often that anything out of traffic just gets robbed for spares.
 
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