Power output request - newish EMUs and DMUs

[Bevan Price]

Cannot find this info. on the forum, or anywhere else via several web searches, so - please can anyone help ?

What is the power output (Kw or h.p.) of the Class 397 emus. I know that 3 of the 5 coaches are motor coaches; I can find their lengths, weights, seating, etc. but nothing about power output.

Also, does anyone have the power output of the diesel engines to be used on the forthcoming Class 196 & 197 dmus. I would imagine they could be the same diesel engines as used on Class 195, but please can anyone confirm.

Thanks.

(For my own reference, I am trying to compile Excel tables showing selected "technical data" for current and previous EMUs & DMUs, including power, train weights, power to weight ratios, etc. - but there are still some "gaps". Should anyone want a copy of the Excel file when it is complete, please email me at [email protected] )

 

[Energy]

Can't find the 397s power output. The 195s, 196s and 197s I believe all have the very similar engines as the 172.

Here is a document which from MTU which the 172s and civitys use, the 172s use the r83 model of engine, the civitys use the r85l model of engine, both are the same but the civitys is slightly more powerful.

 

[jopsuk]

What about pasting the data into a Google Drive Sheet and open it for editing? Might be easier to collect and share the information that way?

 

[Nick Ashwell]

What about pasting the data into a Google Drive Sheet and open it for editing? Might be easier to collect and share the information that way?

Or if the OP wants to use Excel there is the Microsoft equivalent via OneDrive

 

[Energy]

Just make sure to keep a backup which the public can't edit.

 

[driver9000]

I haven't seen anything official stating the HP/kW output of 397s but they have 12 powered axles under 3 vehicles (DMS, MSL and DMF).

 

[Domh245]

I haven't seen anything official stating the HP/kW output of 397s but they have 12 powered axles under 3 vehicles (DMS, MSL and DMF).

Couple that with the presumption that each axle has one of these fitted, and we can estimate an installed power of 12x220kW = 2.64MW (~3550 hp), although I've no idea how 'right' that is

 

[hexagon789]

195s (and thus 196/197s) have 390kW/523hp engines

 

[driver9000]

Couple that with the presumption that each axle has one of these fitted, and we can estimate an installed power of 12x220kW = 2.64MW (~3550 hp), although I've no idea how 'right' that is

I have since asked around and got the answer. They are 3948hp with each motor giving 329hp. Our original guesstimates were around 3500hp.

 

[hexagon789]

I have since asked around and got the answer. They are 3948hp with each motor giving 329hp. Our original guesstimates were around 3500hp.

Unless the lower figure is the continous output and the higher figure the one-hour/maximum output?

 

[Bevan Price]

Many thanks to everyone for their help. Unless the moderators object, I will make the tables available here (when complete) - probably as pdf files. Anyone is welcome to copy them or use them for non-commercial purposes.

 

[Bevan Price]

Many thanks to everyone for their help. Unless the moderators object, I will make the tables available here (when complete) - probably as pdf files. Anyone is welcome to copy them or use them for non-commercial purposes.

In case anyone might find them useful, I have loaded some pdf files containing data about various types of train, including power output, train weight, power to weight ratio (h.p./ton), and maximum speed (mph). Blank spaces indicate information not located (or not yet available for trains on order.)
Each file name describes the contents of that file.

Updated versions of the dmu files, incorporating the downrated Voyager figures and a couple of other corrections have replaced the previous versions. BP, 4/7/20.

 

[hexagon789]

In case anyone might find them useful, I have loaded some pdf files containing data about various types of train, including power output, train weight, power to weight ratio (h.p./ton), and maximum speed (mph). Blank spaces indicate information not located (or not yet available for trains on order.)
Each file name describes the contents of that file.

A small point - the 230bhp Leyland Albion engines were all derated to 200hp very early on.

 

[Railperf]

A small point - the 230bhp Leyland Albion engines were all derated to 200hp very early on.

Class 220/221/222 are all derated to around 700hp per engine

 

[Bevan Price]

Thanks for the corrections, I will include them when I next update the files.

 

[hexagon789]

Class 220/221/222 are all derated to around 700hp per engine

That is all of those classes then? Some sources suggest it's only CrossCountry units and Avanti 221s and EMR 222s are unaffected, though other suggest only the Avanti 221s are still 750hp

 

[100andthirty]

I hope everyone is aware that the power outputs of diesel trains and of electric trains are not directly comparable. It is the convention to quote the maximum power of train's diesel engines. These power everything on the train..... Propulsion, lights, heating and air conditioning. At best, only 85% of the power is available at the wheels. In comparison it is conventional to quote the combined continuous power rating of all the motors on an electric train. Virtually all this power is available at the wheels. Indeed more power may be available for short periods, as it is also normal to quote a higher 1-hour rating for electric motors.

 

[notadriver]

185 tons seems light for a 397. 376s weigh more with shorter coaches.

 

[hwl]

That is all of those classes then? Some sources suggest it's only CrossCountry units and Avanti 221s and EMR 222s are unaffected, though other suggest only the Avanti 221s are still 750hp

Everything is derated.

 

[Railperf]

I hope everyone is aware that the power outputs of diesel trains and of electric trains are not directly comparable. It is the convention to quote the maximum power of train's diesel engines. These power everything on the train..... Propulsion, lights, heating and air conditioning. At best, only 85% of the power is available at the wheels. In comparison it is conventional to quote the combined continuous power rating of all the motors on an electric train. Virtually all this power is available at the wheels. Indeed more power may be available for short periods, as it is also normal to quote a higher 1-hour rating for electric motors.

I always work on only 80 to 85% maximum diesel power available at the rail.
Lower power at rail figures also apply to DC variants of the Class 444 and 450. Due to current draw restrictions, Siemens sources estimated these as delivering 1200 and 1100kW at the rail respectively. The same must apply to all other modern DC EMUs. It certainly does to Class 395 Javelin's which are severely handicapped on DC. From experience, Class 700s accelerate a lot slower on DC too - suggesting much less power available to the motors.

 

[Richard Scott]

Everything is derated.

What about 185s - they still 750hp? Seem massively overpowered, glad I'm not putting the fuel in them.

 

[Railperf]

What about 185s - they still 750hp? Seem massively overpowered, glad I'm not putting the fuel in them.

I understand they are still 750hp ..probably due to the weight lol. They are 12seconds slower to 100mph than a derated 222 - which only equates to 5 seconds over 3 miles. Nothing in it!

 

[hwl]

What about 185s - they still 750hp? Seem massively overpowered, glad I'm not putting the fuel in them.

All the 220/221/220s engines as the issue is largely to do with how they are configured for gen set up.

180/185 aren't derated as they have hydraulic tramissions

 

[hexagon789]

Everything is derated.

Thanks, sometimes it's difficult to know what is and isn't correct - that many sources contradict each other!

 

[hexagon789]

What about 185s - they still 750hp? Seem massively overpowered, glad I'm not putting the fuel in them.

I think that's why normally they run on two engines, cycling through which one stays off except on duties which require the full power output of all 3 engines.

 

[hexagon789]

I hope everyone is aware that the power outputs of diesel trains and of electric trains are not directly comparable. It is the convention to quote the maximum power of train's diesel engines. These power everything on the train..... Propulsion, lights, heating and air conditioning. At best, only 85% of the power is available at the wheels. In comparison it is conventional to quote the combined continuous power rating of all the motors on an electric train. Virtually all this power is available at the wheels. Indeed more power may be available for short periods, as it is also normal to quote a higher 1-hour rating for electric motors.

I was going to mention that but didn't as it complicates consuderably things because efficiency differs between traction of different eras as well as different methods of transmission in respect of diesels and I wasn't sure how technical the OP wanted to get with power ratings

 

[driver9000]

185 tons seems light for a 397. 376s weigh more with shorter coaches.

A 397 weighs 192t in working order.

 

[D365]

I think that's why normally they run on two engines, cycling through which one stays off except on duties which require the full power output of all 3 engines.

According to other discussions the “eco mode” has been disabled in recent years.

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely the unleashed power output of a DC Emu such as a 450, in terms of hardware fitted, is 2000 kW. The fact that Network Rail cannot allow that to happen is a separate issue?

 

[chiltern trev]

Thanks - some interesting hp per ton comparisons. A Eurostar 373 (10.9) is almost the same as a deceased MerseyRail class 502 3 car (10.4) from 1939! or did I miss something? I would have thought that a High Speed Eurostar would have been a factor of 2 or 3 times a 70mph 1939 EMU.