Power output request - newish EMUs and DMUs

[SteveyBee131]

According to other discussions the “eco mode” has been disabled in recent years.

It certainly hadn't up to the start of lockdown. Up to that point I travelled fairly regularly on 185s, and eco-mode was still a thing.

 

[D6975]

I did York-Manchester last year on a 185 and the coach I was in had the engine off for the entire journey. It's very noticeably quieter travelling in the 'off' coach!

 

[notadriver]

What I find interesting is that 750 bhp engined DMUs such as 185s and 222s (but not 180s) can show 750V dc powered units a clean pair of heels to 60 mph and beyond.

 

[KevinTurvey]

May I query the figures for the 350 - they seem low for what is a relatively high performance unit?
Would this be the same as the 450?
Thanks

 

[D365]

What I find interesting is that 750 bhp engined DMUs such as 185s and 222s (but not 180s) can show 750V dc powered units a clean pair of heels to 60 mph and beyond.

I'm not surprised at all. With the Class 222, the engines + alternators are probably providing more current than a third rail unit would be getting from the DC.

 

[swt_passenger]

May I query the figures for the 350 - they seem low for what is a relatively high performance unit?
Would this be the same as the 450?
Thanks

350 should be 2000 kW as 450, many reference books (and some ROSCO info sheets), only give the figures for a single motor vehicle, and of course there are 2...

 

[Bevan Price]

I did York-Manchester last year on a 185 and the coach I was in had the engine off for the entire journey. It's very noticeably quieter travelling in the 'off' coach!

Sometimes the engines are off because they have failed. A problem also found with Voyagers, I understand.

 

[Bevan Price]

May I query the figures for the 350 - they seem low for what is a relatively high performance unit?
Would this be the same as the 450?
Thanks

Yes - they need editing. There may be other errors / typos., etc. - with so much data, it is all too easy to copy the wrong numbers, or put things in the wrong rows / columns. Thanks to everyone who report my mistakes, etc. I will update the files as/when necessary.

The Class 331 power also needs to be changed.

 

[hexagon789]

May I query the figures for the 350 - they seem low for what is a relatively high performance unit?
Would this be the same as the 450?
Thanks

350, 444 and 450 are all 250kW motors, four per motor car and two motor cars per train so 2000kW but the 444 and 450 are limited as to the speed range they can produce that across.

 

[Richard Scott]

What I find interesting is that 750 bhp engined DMUs such as 185s and 222s (but not 180s) can show 750V dc powered units a clean pair of heels to 60 mph and beyond.

Remember going out of Waterloo on a 50 and it left a 455 behind, assuming current demand is so high that drivers didn't risk applying too much power on units? Was told by someone who used to drive out of Waterloo if three trains left at same time you had to make sure you applied power at different time to others otherwise would trip power supply! Assume been upgraded since then but still limited?

 

[notadriver]

Remember going out of Waterloo on a 50 and it left a 455 behind, assuming current demand is so high that drivers didn't risk applying too much power on units? Was told by someone who used to drive out of Waterloo if three trains left at same time you had to make sure you applied power at different time to others otherwise would trip power supply! Assume been upgraded since then but still limited?

a class 455 only has 1000 hp from its dc EE507 motors. A powerful diesel will easily pull away at higher speeds above say 50 mph.

 

[hexagon789]

Remember going out of Waterloo on a 50 and it left a 455 behind, assuming current demand is so high that drivers didn't risk applying too much power on units? Was told by someone who used to drive out of Waterloo if three trains left at same time you had to make sure you applied power at different time to others otherwise would trip power supply! Assume been upgraded since then but still limited?

I'd say it's as much the low power output if a 455 as the means of traction control. A 50 can if rail conditions allow put out full power pretty much from the get-go, a 455 is limited by how quickly the resistances are removed and camshaft notches up

 

[Railperf]

350 should be 2000 kW as 450, many reference books (and some ROSCO info sheets), only give the figures for a single motor vehicle, and of course there are 2...

Class 350 and 360 are the same.
No point claiming the DC units have the same hp/ton ratio - they simply don't. The traction electronics are deliver 1100-1200kW maximum - even if the hardware is designed for maximum 2000kW.
That's why TGV and Eurostar are given different power ratings for the specific supply. Did you ever see anyone claim Eurostar delivered 16,400 hp on 750vDC?
Similarly bi-modes are given an electric and a diesel power rating.
Please rate the Class 444's and 450's at their 'capped' ratings that reflect their true performance.

 

[swt_passenger]

Deleted

 

[bengley]

According to other discussions the “eco mode” has been disabled in recent years.

It's not - it's used by some drivers, but most opt to turn it off, because they are sluggish as hell up the hills in the pennines on 2 engines.

 

[Richard Scott]

It's not - it's used by some drivers, but most opt to turn it off, because they are sluggish as hell up the hills in the pennines on 2 engines.

Can't believe with 1500hp installed and even taking transmission losses into account they lack performance. Is it because they're so heavy? A 3 car 158 on all engines has less installed power.

 

[notadriver]

Can't believe with 1500hp installed and even taking transmission losses into account they lack performance. Is it because they're so heavy? A 3 car 158 on all engines has less installed power.

In my humble opinion I think a 185 on 2 engines is like a 3 car 158 with 3 engines.

 

[bengley]

Can't believe with 1500hp installed and even taking transmission losses into account they lack performance. Is it because they're so heavy? A 3 car 158 on all engines has less installed power.

You're spoiled with three good engines on a 185. They're amazingly quick. Before I signed 185s I only ever drove EMUs so was used to good performance. I don't have any experience with anything slower to compare them to.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

A 185 will leave a voyager behind from a standing start, the voyager only picking up the edge through its higher top speed. Plenty times over the years I have been on a 185 leaving york at the same time a voyager did, pretty much side by side but once 2nd gear kicked in the 185 surged away like a demented bat! It was only on approach to carlton junction the voyager caught up and passed. HSTs on a 9+2 load had no chance!

 

[notadriver]

A 185 will leave a voyager behind from a standing start, the voyager only picking up the edge through its higher top speed. Plenty times over the years I have been on a 185 leaving york at the same time a voyager did, pretty much side by side but once 2nd gear kicked in the 185 surged away like a demented bat! It was only on approach to carlton junction the voyager caught up and passed. HSTs on a 9+2 load had no chance!

Hmmm in theory a healthy voyager has a better 0-60 time than a 185 (assuming all its engines are working). The diesel electric transmission allows better acceleration)

 

[notadriver]

W

You're spoiled with three good engines on a 185. They're amazingly quick. Before I signed 185s I only ever drove EMUs so was used to good performance. I don't have any experience with anything slower to compare them to.

Same here. Which EMUs did you drive ?

 

[Richard Scott]

Hmmm in theory a healthy voyager has a better 0-60 time than a 185 (assuming all its engines are working). The diesel electric transmission allows better acceleration)

The 185 has lower 'gearing' as only 100mph, maybe that makes a difference?

 

[Railperf]

Hmmm in theory a healthy voyager has a better 0-60 time than a 185 (assuming all its engines are working). The diesel electric transmission allows better acceleration)

Also your 185's don't deliver full power from a standing start either ..do they.
The 185s are heavier too.
My performance recordings suggest a healthy 222 on level track is slightly faster to 60 and 100mph than a 185 - over 3 miles or so. After that 222 can romp away with is 125mph maximum speed. And the 222s were even faster before the engine downrated.
In a virtual drag race to 3 miles - i have the 222 as 2.min 47 secs, the 185s at 2 min 52 sec.
A Class 755/4 on diesel for comparison takes 2min35 sec while a 170 would take 3 min 21 secs.

 

[bengley]

W


Same here. Which EMUs did you drive ?

319/377/387/700

 

[Railperf]

319/377/387/700

Interesting bunch ..700 quickest..followed by 377/387 - the 185s only 30sec slower to 100mph. The 319s are awful. Maybe slightly quicker to 60mph than the 185..but very sluggish after that - particularly over 80mph

 

[hexagon789]

The 185 has lower 'gearing' as only 100mph, maybe that makes a difference?

Though it's a three-speed hydraulic with changing at approx 55 and 80mph, my suspicion would be a Voyager would better a 185 to 60 because if the transmission differences even though a 185 is nominally lower geared so to speak. The original pre-downrating spec for a 220 was 0-60 in 60 seconds, 70 seconds for a 221.

 

[hexagon789]

Class 350 and 360 are the same.
No point claiming the DC units have the same hp/ton ratio - they simply don't. The traction electronics are deliver 1100-1200kW maximum - even if the hardware is designed for maximum 2000kW.
That's why TGV and Eurostar are given different power ratings for the specific supply. Did you ever see anyone claim Eurostar delivered 16,400 hp on 750vDC?
Similarly bi-modes are given an electric and a diesel power rating.
Please rate the Class 444's and 450's at their 'capped' ratings that reflect their true performance.

No wonder that 444/450s don't seem to actually run at 100 for very long if they've only got 1200kW max on 750V, must take an age to reach the 'ton'.

 

[ashkeba]

To add to that - the shut down engine cannot be restarted until you come to a stand - not a problem when doing 100mph across the plain of York - but a right pain if you suffer a TSR or signal check - because you only then have 2 engines to get you back to line speed - nightmare if you have steep gradients to encounter.

What's the reason for that design decision?

 

[37057]

What's the reason for that design decision?

Transmission needs to be stationary for reverse gears to engage.

 

[ashkeba]

Transmission needs to be stationary for reverse gears to engage.

Why does it need reverse gears to engage when travelling forwards?