Powers of Enforcement Officers

[Dinotrain]

Hello !

I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about the rail enforcement officers use by Northern Rail ever since the following -

I was running late for a train once, and so didn't have time to get a ticket. Most days this was fine, as a conductor would come down the train and I could but one. This day however there was no such offer. When I arrived at Leeds station I went to the ticket office and asked to buy a ticket for my journey, and they refused to sell me one, and instead an enforcement officer was beckoned and issued me with a penalty fare. I was annoyed as I had really not tried to avoid getting a ticket, and feel like it was a trap !

So now when I see enforcement officers I am (wrongly or rightly) slightly aggrieved that I should have to show them my ticket.

Today I was in a bad mood already and was incredibly tired. I also had before the journey had to pay for another ticket as I couldn't modify my off-peak to peak. So when I saw enforcement officers at the station I didn't really feel like being compliant. When asked to show my ticket the conversation went something like this -

Enforcement - Can i see your ticket please?

Me - Why?

Enforcement -Because it is an offense to travel on a train without a valid ticket.

Me - I have a ticket - what if I don't show you?

Enforcement -I will take your details and issues yo...

Me - what if i don't give you my details?

Enforcement -We will look at CCTV and find you and stop you using the the trains.

*i begrudgingly showed my ticket*


My question is if i have a valid ticket (which I always do), what happen if I refuse to show it to them?

This might seem like a bit of a d**k move (you might be right), and realistically it was only an issue today because I was already annoyed. But am just interested if I could potentially get prosecuted simply for not showing my valid ticket.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[peterblue]

What station did you start from?

 

[Dinotrain]

What station did you start from?

Leeds station - so I used my ticket to go through the barriers.

 

[Darandio]

Which station did you start your journey the first time, the time you were given a penalty fare?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I was running late for a train once, and so didn't have time to get a ticket. Most days this was fine, as a conductor would come down the train and I could but one. This day however there was no such offer. When I arrived at Leeds station I went to the ticket office and asked to buy a ticket for my journey, and they refused to sell me one, and instead an enforcement officer was beckoned and issued me with a penalty fare. I was annoyed as I had really not tried to avoid getting a ticket, and feel like it was a trap !

If you board a train without making use of available ticket facilities at your boarding station then that is a criminal offence under Railway Byelaw 18. This is an absolute offence like speeding - it doesn't matter whether or not you intend to dodge the fare, you are guilty of the offence if you fail to make use of available ticketing facilities.

Such an offence is frequently regularised through selling a ticket onboard (sometimes fully discounted using Railcards and/or Off-Peak discounts, but rightfully they can decide only to sell an undiscounted Anytime Single).

However train companies are just as entitled to regularise the situation through the issuance of a Penalty Fare. This is the higher of £20 or twice the relevant single fare. There are specific legal issues meaning that Northern's Penalty Fare scheme is not actually compliant with the Regulations, and are thus challengeable, but fundamentally speaking the Enforcement Officers were not trapping you into anything. They caught you "red handed".

Train companies can also decide to prosecute the offence that has been committed... I imagine most people would prefer either of the above outcomes to going to Court!

I also had before the journey had to pay for another ticket as I couldn't modify my off-peak to peak.

You can always change one kind of flexible ticket for another one. You can go to the ticket office to do so, or you can do it onboard the train without penalty (if you can access the platform!). It isn't an offence to board with an Off-Peak ticket that requires payment of an excess (unless you intend to avoid payment of the excess).

We will look at CCTV and find you and stop you using the the trains.

This is the only part of what they said that was, to put it nicely, b******s. If they don't have the backup of the police then the reality is that not much can or will happen if you refuse to engage with them. Of course, at a major station like Leeds with a BTP office, requesting police attendance isn't difficult, but at minor outlying stations, revenue blocks without the police are often evaded by determined passengers.

As for your question of if you need to show your ticket if you have a valid ticket, the answer is yes, you are required to do so by the National Rail Conditions of Travel, the Railway Byelaws, the Penalty Fares Regulations and the Regulation of Railways Act. Not least, you're required to do so by common sense - after all, there isn't any other way of seeing who does and doesn't have a ticket other than asking people to show their ticket!

 

[Dinotrain]

If you board a train without making use of available ticket facilities at your boarding station then that is a criminal offence under Railway Byelaw 18. This is an absolute offence like speeding - it doesn't matter whether or not you intend to dodge the fare, you are guilty of the offence if you fail to make use of available ticketing facilities.

Such an offence is frequently regularised through selling a ticket onboard (sometimes fully discounted using Railcards and/or Off-Peak discounts, but rightfully they can decide only to sell an undiscounted Anytime Single).

However train companies are just as entitled to regularise the situation through the issuance of a Penalty Fare. This is the higher of £20 or twice the relevant single fare. There are specific legal issues meaning that Northern's Penalty Fare scheme is not actually compliant with the Regulations, and are thus challengeable, but fundamentally speaking the Enforcement Officers were not trapping you into anything. They caught you "red handed".

That's really useful, thanks. I can't argue with what the law says ! I main reason I was miffed was I kind of thought the idea of (spirit of ?) was to stop people who were deliberately not paying - whereas as i was trying my best to pay, and they refused, when previously I have never had a problem buying a ticket at the end of my journey.

You can always change one kind of flexible ticket for another one. You can go to the ticket office to do so, or you can do it onboard the train without penalty (if you can access the platform!). It isn't an offence to board with an Off-Peak ticket that requires payment of an excess (unless you intend to avoid payment of the excess).

I was told that because I had an e-ticket, I couldn't change it. (bought on trainline).

As for your question of if you need to show your ticket if you have a valid ticket, the answer is yes, you are required to do so by the National Rail Conditions of Travel, the Railway Byelaws, the Penalty Fares Regulations and the Regulation of Railways Act. Not least, you're required to do so by common sense - after all, there isn't any other way of seeing who does and doesn't have a ticket other than asking people to show their ticket!

Yeah, that's fair - i was just wondering if on the off chance I had decided to be difficult today, and not shown my ticket - then somehow they had got my details - what would they have done? prosecuted me for not showing my ticket?

This is the only part of what they said that was, to put it nicely, b******s. If they don't have the backup of the police then the reality is that not much can or will happen if you refuse to engage with them.

So if I have a ticket, but refuse to engage with them, then they have no actually solution to me as a problem ?

 

[Dinotrain]

Which station did you start your journey the first time, the time you were given a penalty fare?

Guiseley ! I Think - it was like 5 years ago ...... strange i'm still annoyed by it really ! ha

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a good job that the ticket under discussion was 100% valid. Had it not been that would have been a spectacular attitude test failure, and no doubt a summons would have been winging its way over as a result.

 

[Dinotrain]

It's a good job that the ticket under discussion was 100% valid. Had it not been that would have been a spectacular attitude test failure, and no doubt a summons would have been winging its way over as a result.

ha ha ! yeah, that would have been brazen - although if I was the sort that tried to deliberately avoid tickets - I probably would have jumped the fence rather than talk to them !

 

[CyrusWuff]

Incidentally, a refusal to give details where an "authorised person" requests them if they suspect you of being in breach of Railway Byelaws (or Section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889) is in itself an offence under Byelaw 23 and Section 5(2) of RoRA and regularly results in assistance from the BTP being sought.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I main reason I was miffed was I kind of thought the idea of (spirit of ?) was to stop people who were deliberately not paying

Penalty Fares are not really intended to deal with people who intended never to pay the fare. They are there to deal with those who only pay when challenged, and those whose behaviour is indiscernable from such passengers - i.e. those who fail to make use of available ticketing facilities. Sometimes they are nevertheless used for things they are not intended to deal with.

whereas as i was trying my best to pay, and they refused, when previously I have never had a problem buying a ticket at the end of my journey.

In the days when Penalty Fares were first being considered for approval by Parliament, the whole system was predicated on the idea that queue times would be reasonable, and there would be Permit to Pay machines wherein you could insert 5p or something to indicate that you intended to pay your fare. You thus wouldn't ever be penalised because of a long queue. Unfortunately the latter aspect of Penalty Fares schemes has been dropped from most Penalty Fares schemes over the last 10 or 15 years, much to the disadvantage of honest but late-running passengers (or those caught up in a slow queue).

The rail industry really doesn't help itself in being inconsistent about how it deals with ticketing irregularities. We regularly hear of people like yourselves who had no idea that buying on board or at the destination wasn't actually legal in their case.

The TOC would probably claim that you didn't 'try your best' to buy a ticket because you failed to make use of the ticket machine(s) and/or ticket office at your starting station. Nowadays you can also use an app to buy a ticket if you are running late, and this has indeed saved me from missing a train more than once

I was told that because I had an e-ticket, I couldn't change it. (bought on trainline).

You can change all forms of tickets, including e-tickets. However many ticket offices will refuse to deal with them, claiming that they can only be changed through the retailer - which in the case of excessing away an Off-Peak restriction is simply not true! As previously stated, unlike with buying a ticket in the first place, you can always get an excess onboard the train or (if no opportunity presents itself onboard) at your destination or interchange.

Yeah, that's fair - i was just wondering if on the off chance I had decided to be difficult today, and not shown my ticket - then somehow they had got my details - what would they have done? prosecuted me for not showing my ticket?

That would certainly not be outside the realms of possibility or likelihood! They could also prosecute you for failing to provide your name and address on request. You just don't really want it to go down that path; often the only 'escape' from a prosecution involves handing over a disproportionate sum to these companies

So if I have a ticket, but refuse to engage with them, then they have no actually solution to me as a problem ?

Without the police, then not really. Not unless they are willing to use force or go to extreme lengths to track you down... Neither of which are in the standard practice of any train companies in Great Britain (not sure about Ireland...).

So you can probably understand why lots of revenue blocks involve arranging for police backup.

 

[Bow Fell]

Enforcement - Can i see your ticket please?

Me - Here you go.

Fixed that for you;

Done. End of story.