Pre Big Four Railway Mergers

[Andy873]

I've been reading this topic but it's no longer open for replies and would like to ask something...

I have never really understood why after the 1921 Railways Act did the L&Y and the L&NW companies merge together just prior to becoming part of the LMS to form a new L&NW company?

Both companies were profitable (or so I think) so why merge?

Would it give the shareholders and workers more power / influence in the new LMS?

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[John Webb]

According to Simmons & Biddle's "The Oxford Companion to British Railway History" (OUP, 1997) the LNWR and the L&Y had generally enjoyed co-operative working for many years. Following the First World War, several senior LNWR staff retired or died, and the L&Y's General Manager was appointed to head both companies - two other vacant senior LNWR offices were also taken on by L&Y officers. Following the 1921 Act which imposed the 1923 'Grouping', the LNWR and L&Y decided to merge in 1922, possibly to try and counteract the influence of the Midland Railway on the new LMS in 1923, without much success!

 

[pdeaves]

why after the 1921 Railways Act did the L&Y and the L&NW companies merge together just prior to becoming part of the LMS

Convenience. Similarly, Barry Railway and Taff Vale Railway merged into GWR in 1922. I can't remember off hand, but there were a couple of minor lines that didn't 'group' until way after all the others (like June 1923 instead of January 1923, something like that). The 1 January 2023 date was a target, I suppose.

 

[Gloster]

Most of the Welsh lines that went into the GWR did so on 1 January 1922; the Brecon & Merthyr, Neath & Brecon, and Burry Port and Gwendraeth Valley did so on 1 July. The Llanelly & Mynydd Mawr, Swansea Harbour Trust and Gwendraeth Valleys were amalgamated in 1923 and Powlesland & Mason on 1 January 1924. The Cleobury Mortimer & Ditton Priors Light Railway came in on 1 January 1922.

The Hull & Barnsley became part of the North Eastern on 1 April 1922. The Colne Valley & Halstead became part of the LNER on 1 July 1923 and the Mid Suffolk Light Railway on 1 July 1924.

The Lynton & Barnstaple passed to the Southern on 1 July 1923.

Source: the 1964 Observer’s Book of Railway Locomotives edited by H.C.Casserley.

One reason for delays in the takeover of small companies seems to have been trying to get a better offer, including such oddments as free tickets for directors who lost their place. Another was the lack of knowledge in small companies as to how to go about the transfer process.

 

[Taunton]

The GWR was different, in the legal sense, because the existing company continued, and just absorbed the minor ones, without a whole new structure being created, In South Wales the GWR already had shareholding in some of the companies, and for a number of them, who had become impoverished, were loaning assets, locomotives and others, and quite possibly supporting the bank balances with loans as well.

 

[Andy873]

Interesting replies as always!

possibly to try and counteract the influence of the Midland Railway on the new LMS in 1923, without much success!

Yes, that might have been a strong reason to merge.

You can see from a business sense why they would want to do it, they seemed to have co-existed well on the whole. The L&Y never had a London link, but they had more or less cornered the L&Y region of the country together with ferry links from Liverpool in the North West and Goole on the East coast.

Another question please:

Given they (and other companies) merged in 1922, and the big four to commence 1923, would any of them have tried to rebrand given the short amount of time before the big four?

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Gloster]

Given they (and other companies) merged in 1922, and the big four to commence 1923, would any of them have tried to rebrand given the short amount of time before the big four?

What, waste good money on repainting something that will have to be repainted again in a year. (I presume you mean, ‘Were L&Y locos repainted in LNWR livery during 1922?’) Image, in the way we have it now, wasn’t so important so they wouldn’t really have bothered. Unlike nowadays, everything would have continued to carry the old livery for a while, with priority going to legally necessary changes. I think that both the L&Y and LNWR used similar shades of black, so there wouldn’t have been much change except to the lettering and lining of locos; I am not sure about coaches.

I don’t know what lettering they would have been put on items that went through a routine (re)painting in 1922: I would guess that L&Y would still be used, but possibly in a simplified form. The only thing I can suggest is to try and find a factory photo of something built in that year.

I don’t know about the H&B/NER situation, but the lines going into the GWR would have used GWR livery as that didn’t change.

 

[Andy873]

What, waste good money on repainting something that will have to be repainted again in a year. (I presume you mean, ‘Were L&Y locos repainted in LNWR livery during 1922?’)

My sentiments exactly.

I just asked in case they were duty bound, but I guess you could drag your heels over that until 1923.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Western Lord]

I think that both the L&Y and LNWR used similar shades of black

How many shades of black can you have? As Los Bravos sang in 1966 "Black is Black".

 

[Gloster]

How many shades of black can you have? As Los Bravos sang in 1966 "Black is Black".

Probably as many as you can have of Shades of Grey.

 

[Revaulx]

What, waste good money on repainting something that will have to be repainted again in a year. (I presume you mean, ‘Were L&Y locos repainted in LNWR livery during 1922?’) Image, in the way we have it now, wasn’t so important so they wouldn’t really have bothered. Unlike nowadays, everything would have continued to carry the old livery for a while, with priority going to legally necessary changes. I think that both the L&Y and LNWR used similar shades of black, so there wouldn’t have been much change except to the lettering and lining of locos; I am not sure about coaches.

I don’t know what lettering they would have been put on items that went through a routine (re)painting in 1922: I would guess that L&Y would still be used, but possibly in a simplified form. The only thing I can suggest is to try and find a factory photo of something built in that year.

I don’t know about the H&B/NER situation, but the lines going into the GWR would have used GWR livery as that didn’t change.

Not so; quite a lot of re-branding of ex-L&Y assets was undertaken. I’ve got a picture in a book somewhere of Ashton Charlestown station gloriously bedecked with all-new LNWR signage.

I have absolutely no evidence to back this up, but having lived through several iterations of merger mania among major accounting firms I would have expected a rash of mergers to have happened in the wake of the 1909 GN/GE/GC union had it not been nixed by the government on “competition” grounds. They were three large and prestigious companies, albeit not terribly wealthy ones.

I wonder whether the government’s decision was based on any actual evidence of reduced competition, or just a knee jerk response. The three largely complemented each other; passenger competition was pretty much restricted to Cambridge, Hertford and Enfield, with the M&GN being hardly significant. The GC and GN had a lot of coal traffic originating around Nottingham, but they had the Midland to contend with there, and in any case much (most) of the GC’s didn’t go to London, but via Banbury to the south coast.

One could imagine the ever greedy and expansionist Midland making a grab for the GSWR, with the LNWR being panicked into getting hold of the Caledonian in response.

Why does this site aggregate postings? It’s really annoying

 

[Ianigsy]

One could imagine the ever greedy and expansionist Midland making a grab for the GSWR, with the LNWR being panicked into getting hold of the Caledonian in response.

Would the LNWR have been that interested in the Caledonian’s activities north of the Central Belt? Perhaps a bid for Carlisle-Glasgow Central/Edinburgh Princes St and associated branches, with the proceeds going to fund a Caledonian acquisition of the Highland or even the GNSR.

 

[Taunton]

The GWR absorbed a range of companies under the act at different dates. The main ones (including Cambrian and Taff Vale) were in May 1922, but three (Brecon & Merthyr; Neath & Brecon; BPGV) came later in the year, in August 1922. The final four, including the two separate Swansea docks companies, came in a scatter of dates between January 1923 and January 1924. In addition, three companies whose shares had been owned by the GWR since 1908, but were still being managed independently, the Rhondda & Swansea Bay, the Port Talbot, and the South Wales Mineral, were wound up and their assets absorbed.

There were also a range of "behind the scenes" absorptions as well, of independent companies, with their own directors etc, which had however been "worked by" major railways since building in earlier times, and you would never really have known they were actually independent. The Didcot, Newbury & Southampton, and the Liskeard & Looe, were two such. Each seemed to have its own financial arrangement with its operating company, sometimes with guaranteed dividends, alternatively with a share of any profits which were never achieved. Some had GWR staff; others their own station staff, pay rates and uniforms, but GWR trains.