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Predictions for how new timetable will cope on May 20th and 21st

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Sunset route

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I presume that it will be installed on all entry points by the time 24tph starts next year.

Best we assume that timetable planners get it right, signallers skills are sharp and we don’t run out of paper and ink cartridges for the printed simplifiers. I think that will apply for the whole country not just Thameslink core and the wider network it interfaces with. This is going to be a big change, more so in some parts of the country than others. As night follows day we are going to have teething problems and how quickly they are resolved will determine whether we make or break this timetable.
 
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bb21

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Strictly speaking this isn't a 'connection'. 6 minutes is less than the minimum connection time at Preston. As such very few people will even know about this.
I think you underestimate the intelligence of the general population as a whole.

Many won't be aware, sure, but those better informed would number far more than "very few", likely in the majority even, if you count those who find out on the day.
 

306024

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Nothing to do with cold feet, and everything to do with Driver training.

The 'finished product' requires far more drivers than were supposed to be handed over at the end of FCC's franchise, and the company had to recruit heavily to even get to that level.


Existing Thameslink drivers need training on the new London Bridge layout. Bedford drivers need to re-learn to East Croydon via New Cross Gate as they haven't been over it for four years.

Drivers staying at Bedford need to learn South Croydon to East Grinstead.

Drivers who are going to be based at Luton are learning to Rainham.

Drivers based at Peterborough are learning to Horsham.

Horsham drivers are learning to Peterborough, with the added restriction that they are needed for Southern duties until their transfer to Thameslink in May.

Brighton drivers are learning to Cambridge, plus they need to learn the new layout at London Bridge as mentioned earlier.

Half of Cambridge need to learn to Brighton.
*The other half of Cambridge will need to learn to Maidstone East.

*Welwyn Garden City needs a traincrew depot building. Drivers who'll be Thameslink, based there, will need to learn to Maidstone East and Sevenoaks. Most of them will need to be trained on class 700s as they haven't been yet.

*Hornsey Thameslink drivers will need route training and class 700 traction training. Hornsey needs a traincrew depot building.

All remaining GN Welwyn and Hornsey drivers will need class 717 traction training.

*Orpington Thameslink drivers will need to learn to Welwyn Garden City.

*Ashford will need to be opened as a traincrew depot, which will need a building sourced for this. I don't know if this is planned to be a new one or use/sharing of an existing one. Ashford drivers will need route training Ashford to Cambridge.

Any route knowledge I've mentioned may also require diversionary routes to be learned as well.

The items marked with asterisks * have been put back 6 to 12 months than originally envisaged. Whilst it is indeed sensible to ramp up the service in the peak from 20tph to 22tph, and then 24tph, to allow the increased flow of trains to bed in, I believe it is really the Herculean logistical task of training that has been realised as the limiting factor.


In the above examples of route learning needing to be done, most involve travelling a fair distance before reaching the route required to be learned, and all involve avoiding travelling with newly qualified drivers, or drivers who have recently had an incident, as they aren't allowed anyone in the cab with them. Avoiding the cabs being too full of route learners is another thing to take into account, and add to that few trains running through London Bridge currently.


Previously, there has been a great deal of training up until this point also: all existing Thameslink drivers were trained on class 700s; most GN drivers trained on class 387s, and a fair amount of GN drivers on class 700s.
A number of Driver Instructors/Trainers have needed training up.

In the future, as well as all the above, ATO training will need to take place.


This has been, and will continue to be, a HUGE task. I think the 'finished product' will run okay mostly - better than most people's predictions, but in the short to medium term, the resourcing of a driver with the requisite route knowledge, or the swapping of drivers half way with the potential for delays to knock-on, will be the likely cause of problems.

A superb post that deserves re-quoting in full and certainly puts into context what is required to get the whole thing up and running, all while doing the day job too. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

While it is important to get it right on day one, the real question is how will the timetable perform on September 20/21. Hopefully there will be no knee-jerk reactions to any perceived problems at the start. It will take passengers time to adjust to the new patterns of service too.
 

notlob.divad

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The same thing happens to someone travelling from Ormskirk to the South Fylde line.

And yet that connection will be the same train. On an Ormskirk -> Preston -> Blackpool South -> Preston -> Colne -> Preston -> Ormskirk diagram.

This is where the straight 5/8/10 minutes minimum connection times, are a) stupid and b) I think some times used by TOCs to avoid making what would otherwise be valid connection. Now if the incoming train is late, they don't have to pay delay re-pay because it was less than the minimum connection time.
 

Bantamzen

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I'm presuming that a few of the people who have replied do not live in Bradford 47802.

I think I may have got the extra 90 minutes of travelling time wrong but that is not the point.

My main point is losing a direct hourly service to Blackpool which during the holiday season is madness.

Apart from a better Sunday service and direct trains to London from Bradford Interchange......the service has got worse over the last 15 or 20 or so years.

Hourly service to Liverpool......gone.
2 hourly service to Scarborough....gone.
Half hourly service to York reduced to hourly.
And now the direct trains to Blackpool (Apart from Sundays) have gone!

As a fellow Bradfordian, I'm afraid I don't share your pessimism. Yes the Blackpool has gone for a few months, a route I'll be using a bit this year with work. But it will be back and then some, eventually we'll have direct services to Liverpool, Chester, Manchester Airport & Nottingham as well. A considerable improvement on a few years ago. As with a lot of the timetable changes around the North it is about taking one step back to take two forward. Locally me for the major change is in the first trains in the morning at Baildon, with both the first Ilkley & Bradford trains being moved forward around 30 minutes with an hour gap to the normal half hourly services. Its actually OK for me on my commute into Leeds, I often get the very early morning 653 to Guiseley to catch the first train to Leeds, this will mean an extra 5 minutes in bed and catching the the train instead of the bus.

On the downside, as a regular traveller to Cheshire via Warrington the loss of the direct TPE service from Yorkshire is a blow. But a bit like Blackpool, its just about working out the connection times and making the best of it for a few months. Hardly something to lose sleep over.

I think you underestimate the intelligence of the general population as a whole.

Many won't be aware, sure, but those better informed would number far more than "very few", likely in the majority even, if you count those who find out on the day.

I'll be on RTT each time I'm off to meetings in Blackpool from Bradford to work out if that connection is possible!
 

Starmill

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I think you underestimate the intelligence of the general population as a whole.
The population as a whole will go onto National Rail Enquiries, or the website of their local operator or ask the ticket office.

All three of these sources will advise of the half hour wait at Preston. Most customers are not enthusiasts, and they will not consult open data sites or scroll through PDF timetables to check the results provided to them by NRE. The only way the typical person might know is of they've made the journey before. If they're a regular, they're likely to pick it up pretty quickly. By definition though the people we are talking about here (people going for a summer trip to Blackpool) are unlikely to be regulars. Most customers are not enthusiasts and aren't interested in the vagaries of this type of thing.

if you count those who find out on the day.
By definition I was talking about people planning journeys. Some people may realise that they've a couple of minutes to catch the connection once they arrive. Some people will notice and go for it at that point, but I wasn't referring to those people. However even if they do this could case a problem if they have an Advance ticket.
 
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Sheepy1209

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I think you underestimate the intelligence of the general population as a whole.

Many won't be aware, sure, but those better informed would number far more than "very few", likely in the majority even, if you count those who find out on the day.
Colleagues frequently travel between Blackpool or Preston and Leeds, and I've lost count of the number of times they've gone via Manchester because it often comes up as a faster journey - when most would far rather sit on the same train all the way and the difference is only a few minutes. When I point out that not only is there a direct train but the via Burnley tickets are cheaper it usually comes as a surprise....... Regular travellers get to know all the quirks, but irregular users relying on the internet for their tickets often don't have a clue (and it's fair to say that on some of my trips to far-flung destinations I probably make many similar mistakes).
 

30907

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Colleagues frequently travel between Blackpool or Preston and Leeds, and I've lost count of the number of times they've gone via Manchester because it often comes up as a faster journey - when most would far rather sit on the same train all the way and the difference is only a few minutes. When I point out that not only is there a direct train but the via Burnley tickets are cheaper it usually comes as a surprise....... Regular travellers get to know all the quirks, but irregular users relying on the internet for their tickets often don't have a clue (and it's fair to say that on some of my trips to far-flung destinations I probably make many similar mistakes).
On the current timetable, the PRE-LDS services show up on the journey planner- they are just less frequent than via MCV. Frequent travellers ought to be able to read the OJP!
Haven't checked from Blackpool though,
 

Sheepy1209

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On the current timetable, the PRE-LDS services show up on the journey planner- they are just less frequent than via MCV. Frequent travellers ought to be able to read the OJP!
Haven't checked from Blackpool though,
It's a long story, the travel is frequent but individuals don't travel frequently if you get my drift. Add the fact that our provider's journey planner isn't the best - I always check elsewhere but most don't.
 

Class 170101

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While it is important to get it right on day one, the real question is how will the timetable perform on September 20/21. Hopefully there will be no knee-jerk reactions to any perceived problems at the start. It will take passengers time to adjust to the new patterns of service too.

They won't be able to go for the c2c option and put the old timetable back in after a week.
 

LeeLivery

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Indeed, rail is only competitive with the car because of its journey times.
I don't see anything deterimental in terms of journey times, just that the times have shifted.
However it is a recipe for disaster, as an East Grinstead - Bedford TL arrives at St Albans at the same time as a STP - Sheffield service passes St Albans.
Hopefully the EMT gets the priority.
I just don't like the bunching of departures around the Sheffields.

I just wish the TL programme could be carried out without shafting the East Midlands

I've only just bothered to look at the East Midlands InterCity timetable. I knew about the Bedford bus mess but for Northamptonshire to have 42 then 18 minute gaps from London, and then an even more ridiculous 8 min then 52 min gap to London would drive me mad if I was still there. Corby might as well be a shuttle with this timetable.
 

bb21

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The population as a whole will go onto National Rail Enquiries, or the website of their local operator or ask the ticket office.

All three of these sources will advise of the half hour wait at Preston. Most customers are not enthusiasts, and they will not consult open data sites or scroll through PDF timetables to check the results provided to them by NRE. The only way the typical person might know is of they've made the journey before. If they're a regular, they're likely to pick it up pretty quickly. By definition though the people we are talking about here (people going for a summer trip to Blackpool) are unlikely to be regulars. Most customers are not enthusiasts and aren't interested in the vagaries of this type of thing.


By definition I was talking about people planning journeys. Some people may realise that they've a couple of minutes to catch the connection once they arrive. Some people will notice and go for it at that point, but I wasn't referring to those people. However even if they do this could case a problem if they have an Advance ticket.

You will be surprised by the number of people who check for options other than full itinerary for their through journeys. There is a surprising number who on being advised of long connection or journey times will check options at intermediate locations such as advised interchange locations. People are fully aware that many lines in this country have more than one or two trains an hour.

Obviously the exact proportion would be up for debate because that data is not particularly simple to capture, but speaking from experience even day-trippers and less frequent rail users can use their own initiative to seek out options with plenty of journey planners readily available nowadays, especially when travelling routes they are not familiar with at all.

There is no particularly sound reason why customers further north would behave any differently. Perhaps some customers from more rural backgrounds do
 

Mugby

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Apologies if I've missed it somewhere but why exactly will TPE be operating local stopping services after May 20th? Surely the clue was in the name, Transpennine EXPRESS, won't that become something of a misnomer in future?

One thing I'm particularly interested in, I'm an occasional user of the 23.35 SO TPE service from Leeds to Man. Piccadilly.
After the changes, there will be a 22.25 TPE stopping service from LDS to MAN
The 23.35 fast service gets ahead of the stopper before Huddersfield. How is this achieved?
 

30907

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The 3-track section at Mirfield presumably.
The new timetable is a much-discussed compromise.
 

Mike99

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Apologies if I've missed it somewhere but why exactly will TPE be operating local stopping services after May 20th? Surely the clue was in the name, Transpennine EXPRESS, won't that become something of a misnomer in future?

One thing I'm particularly interested in, I'm an occasional user of the 23.35 SO TPE service from Leeds to Man. Piccadilly.
After the changes, there will be a 22.25 TPE stopping service from LDS to MAN
The 23.35 fast service gets ahead of the stopper before Huddersfield. How is this achieved?

I think you meant after the changes there will be 23.25 TPE stopping service. This train 1K40 departs Mirfield at 23:47 and pulls forward and is timed to arrive Heaton Lodge Jn at 23:50 and departs 23:52, at this point 1P46 the 23:35 from Leeds (timed to arrive Heaton Lodge Jn 23:50)overtakes 1K40 and hence arrives in Huddersfield first. Thank God for RTT which in conjunction with Tracksy this can be worked out. Hope this helps
 

infobleep

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I was on the Wimbledon / Sutton loop recently Nd their was an audio announcement about train times changing Nd an increased frequency of trains. Can anyone tell how grateful the frequency increase might be on the loop?
 

Mugby

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I think you meant after the changes there will be 23.25 TPE stopping service. This train 1K40 departs Mirfield at 23:47 and pulls forward and is timed to arrive Heaton Lodge Jn at 23:50 and departs 23:52, at this point 1P46 the 23:35 from Leeds (timed to arrive Heaton Lodge Jn 23:50)overtakes 1K40 and hence arrives in Huddersfield first. Thank God for RTT which in conjunction with Tracksy this can be worked out. Hope this helps

Thanks. Yes, slip of the finger, I did mean the 23.25 stopping service!

Well that should work perfectly fine, nothing could go wrong with that 2 minute window could it! :lol:
 

London Trains

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I was on the Wimbledon / Sutton loop recently Nd their was an audio announcement about train times changing Nd an increased frequency of trains. Can anyone tell how grateful the frequency increase might be on the loop?
Just a few more Southern Peak Extras. No Thameslink increase at all, just times changing.
 

swt_passenger

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Just a few more Southern Peak Extras. No Thameslink increase at all, just times changing.
If it was an auto announcement on a Thameslink train it may well have been on about the whole Thameslink network anyway, rather than the particular route.
I tried to fathom out the Southern peak extras in response to a poster a few days ago, it looked like they were not running their full eventual route yet: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...8-service-changes.160629/page-25#post-3443134
 

urpert

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You should know by now members. Of this forum know best.

The only fault i can give at moment is they are not advertising major changes hard enough at stations.
I noticed yesterday at Bromley South there are some pre-printed SE information posters with space for station staff to fill in locally relevant information by hand (eg DID YOU KNOW THE 0650 TO VICTORIA IS RETIMED). Even in rush hour quite a few people were stopping to read them.
 

geoffk

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Manchester Piccadilly should be fun and games when commuters turn up and realise there is no longer four express trains to Leeds. Instead there will be two fast and two semi fasts. When the Windsor link opened-Many passengers wishing to travel to Blackpool and Southport still turned up at Victoria in the early 90s expecting direct trains-Only to be told they no longer run-Myself included.

The recast TPE service between Manchester and Leeds throws up many potential problems for users of the small stations Mossley to Morley inclusive, apart from the skip-stopping and reduced capacity at peak times.

Passengers from Manchester to Huddersfield and Leeds will need to get used to Victoria being their main point of departure. If they stick with Piccadilly, they have a choice of two fast trains an hour from the inconvenient and crowded platform 14 which set off in the "wrong" direction via Oxford Road and Victoria, and two semi-fast but more direct trains from the main station. There is a risk that, if many of them choose the latter, passengers to intermediate stations might be crowded off at busy times. The xx35 from Piccadilly (MIA - Newcastle) and the xx47 to Hull take about the same time to Leeds and the Hull is actually 5 minutes quicker to Huddersfield.

Platform 16 at Leeds will be used by five of the six TPE trains to Manchester and passngers will board the first available train. The semi-fast starting at Leeds will go from bay platform 13 so won't get filled there but there is the risk that the train from Hull could be well-used by Leeds passengers, at the expense of those wanting to board further down the line. At Huddersfield, the two-semi-fasts will not be significantly slower and will be attractive to those who want Piccadilly rather than Victoria as their destination.

The Manchester - Leeds semi-fast will be overtaken by the following Liverpool - Scarborough in both directions, at Dewsbury eastbound and at Mirfield/Heaton Lodge westbound. I think I'm right in saying that currently nothing is scheduled to overtake at Dewsbury, so this change will add a performance risk.
 
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The recast TPE service between Manchester and Leeds throws up many potential problems for users of the small stations Mossley to Morley inclusive, apart from the skip-stopping and reduced capacity at peak times.

Passengers from Manchester to Huddersfield and Leeds will need to get used to Victoria being their main point of departure. If they stick with Piccadilly, they have a choice of two fast trains an hour from the inconvenient and crowded platform 14 which set off in the "wrong" direction via Oxford Road and Victoria, and two semi-fast but more direct trains from the main station. There is a risk that, if many of them choose the latter, passengers to intermediate stations might be crowded off at busy times. The xx35 from Piccadilly (MIA - Newcastle) and the xx47 to Hull take about the same time to Leeds and the Hull is actually 5 minutes quicker to Huddersfield.

Platform 16 at Leeds will be used by five of the six TPE trains to Manchester and passngers will board the first available train. The semi-fast starting at Leeds will go from bay platform 13 so won't get filled there but there is the risk that the train from Hull could be well-used by Leeds passengers, at the expense of those wanting to board further down the line. At Huddersfield, the two-semi-fasts will not be significantly slower and will be attractive to those who want Piccadilly rather than Victoria as their destination.

The Manchester - Leeds semi-fast will be overtaken by the following Liverpool - Scarborough in both directions, at Dewsbury eastbound and at Mirfield/Heaton Lodge westbound. I think I'm right in saying that currently nothing is scheduled to overtake at Dewsbury, so this change will add a performance risk.

I remember when the Newcastle to Liverpool train was re-routed via Victoria three years ago- Many passengers disembarked and were bewildered at which Manchester station they had arrived at. There were plenty of staff on hand to advise passengers and were handing out timetables, I would expect the same again but at many of the stations along the line, It will be chaos- But I'm sure it will settle down once passengers know which trains go to where/and which station.
 

Ianno87

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I remember when the Newcastle to Liverpool train was re-routed via Victoria three years ago- Many passengers disembarked and were bewildered at which Manchester station they had arrived at. There were plenty of staff on hand to advise passengers and were handing out timetables, I would expect the same again but at many of the stations along the line, It will be chaos- But I'm sure it will settle down once passengers know which trains go to where/and which station.

Feel sorry for the guy I had on a Liverpool train soon after May 2014. Not paying attention, he sat on the train as it called at Victoria, thinking it was Piccadilly. Thinking as it was a Liverpool train he'd stay on then get off at Oxford Rd, the next stop....
 

Starmill

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Platform 16 at Leeds will be used by five of the six TPE trains to Manchester and passngers will board the first available train. The semi-fast starting at Leeds will go from bay platform 13 so won't get filled there but there is the risk that the train from Hull could be well-used by Leeds passengers, at the expense of those wanting to board further down the line.
Worth considering the impact of Advance tickets too which are typically much cheaper on the services from Hull and Leeds to Manchester Pic than the express services.
 

Solent&Wessex

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I remember when the Newcastle to Liverpool train was re-routed via Victoria three years ago- Many passengers disembarked and were bewildered at which Manchester station they had arrived at. There were plenty of staff on hand to advise passengers and were handing out timetables, I would expect the same again but at many of the stations along the line, It will be chaos- But I'm sure it will settle down once passengers know which trains go to where/and which station.

Even now some years later many passengerd disembark the Newcastle - Liverpool service at either Leeds or Huddersfield so they can catch a train to Piccadilly. This is especially true of infrequent leisure passengers.

This is mainly because when using online journey planners and ticket booking sites people put "Manchester Piccadilly" as their destination, so the websites will provide a connection to Piccadilly. They will not show the arrival at Victoria at all. Often people are very confused when you say that this train stops at Manchester anyway. Some stay on to Victoria but most insist on changing to go to Piccadilly because that is perceived to be the important station centrally located and where everyone goes to.

It will take a lot of work to change this perception and may require some reworking of the booking sites if possible.
 

Idon'tKnow

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More 3 carriage trains on the cross city line during peak hours will be chaos! Most TOCs try to increase capacity with their new timetables, but not WMR. :rolleyes:
 
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LowLevel

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I will bet that the Midland Mainline will be horrific.

It's projected that up trains from the Midlands presenting at Bedford 3 minutes late will be 12-20 minutes late arriving at St Pancras as they'll automatically be at the bottom of the regulating pile.

EMT have stripped out large numbers of dispatch staff over the last 5 years in favour of having train managers self dispatch on 222s less than 8 car at most locations and/or assist on HSTs rather than have 2 platform staff and are now panicking about dwell times. Short staffing at the MML stations from Market Harborough south is not unusual with Corby often unstaffed entirely.

The infrastructure is not reliable with the former Leicester powerbox and West Hampstead areas regularly suffering lineside equipment failures that will be enough to wreck the timetable.

It's no different to the High Frequency timetable that has caused the Stockport - Manchester - Castlefield stretch to be a nightmare with trains entering the area on time emerging 20 minutes late on a regular basis.
 

frediculous

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Overheard a conversation between staff this morning at Rainham. Thameslink don't have enough drivers with route knowledge to run the Luton-Rainham service (hence why the number of services keeps changing), especially on the Gillingham to Rainham stretch. Also the DOO cameras do not work properly between Dartford and Rainham. How much of this is true, I don't know, but sounds similar to what a Southeastern manager told me the other day during a "meet the manager" session last week.
 

hwl

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Overheard a conversation between staff this morning at Rainham. Thameslink don't have enough drivers with route knowledge to run the Luton-Rainham service (hence why the number of services keeps changing), especially on the Gillingham to Rainham stretch. Also the DOO cameras do not work properly between Dartford and Rainham. How much of this is true, I don't know, but sounds similar to what a Southeastern manager told me the other day during a "meet the manager" session last week.

Cameras - sounds like the classic platform lighting isn't good enough in the dark reason.
 

pemma

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My main point is losing a direct hourly service to Blackpool which during the holiday season is madness.

Not a good situation but I think Bradford temporarily losing a direct Blackpool link is much less of an issue than when Liverpool lost theirs for much longer.

I also think with the illuminations being a popular attraction in Blackpool, that losing direct evening services in the autumn is a much worse issue than losing direct daytime trains in the summer as it can mean having to leave Blackpool earlier to make the last train home. However, it seems currently the last Blackpool to Yorkshire service is 20:31 (departing Preston at 20:56), while in the new timetable the last Preston to Yorkshire service will be 21:47, so Bradford doesn't do badly in that respect.
 
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