'Premier League' Heritage Railways

[UP13]

I've often read about heritage/preserved railways having or reaching ''premier league' status. However I haven't been able to find out wwhic railways are in this supposed premier league. Yes I have tried Googling it...

So I'd like to ask:
A. Does it actually exist and if so what is the qualification criteria?
B. If it does exist then do other tiers exist or is it just of course of being premier or not?

 

[yorkie]

I've often read about heritage/preserved railways having or reaching ''premier league' status. However I haven't been able to find out wwhic railways are in this supposed premier league. Yes I have tried Googling it...

So I'd like to ask:
A. Does it actually exist and if so what is the qualification criteria?
B. If it does exist then do other tiers exist or is it just of course of being premier or not?

No, it's not an actual thing; it's effectively a figure of speech and highly subjective.

 

[UP13]

No, it's not an actual thing; it's effectively a figure of speech and highly subjective.

I thought as much.

Cheers.

 

[DarloRich]

No, it's not an actual thing; it's effectively a figure of speech and highly subjective.

Agreed - however the "top 6" candidates, if such a thing existed, are fairly obvious:

NYMR, SVR, Great Central, West Somerset, Bluebell, Swanage.

 

[4141]

Agreed - however the "top 6" candidates, if such a thing existed, are fairly obvious:

NYMR, SVR, Great Central, West Somerset, Bluebell, Swanage.

...with the Glos Warwickshire snapping at their heels...

 

[DarloRich]

...with the Glos Warwickshire snapping at their heels...

I forgot about them! This is harder than i thought

 

[fireftrm]

and what about the East Lancs?

 

[fireftrm]

and the Strathspey?
and FWHR?
and....

 

[fireftrm]

First step - have a measure of what makes a railway one of the top x number - mileage? number of services? turnover? visitor numbers?

 

[Ianno87]

and what about the East Lancs?

Ditto.

 

[UP13]

I'll set the cat among the pigeons...

For arguments sake I'll arbitrarily create categories and the collective wisdom on here can argue about which category specific railways fit in.

Category 1 ('premier league')
A railway that strongly appeals to both enthusiasts and non-enthusiasts including young families. Excellent station facilities and decent coaches. Objects of interest at stations whether it's a museum, pub, cafe, shed, playground etc. Lovely scenery, decent car parking facilities and preferably a mainline connection. The sort of place you would travel a decent distance to have a whole day out or would pay decent money to visit on a railtour.

Category 2
Great for the enthusiasts but not great for non-enthusiasts. You'd happily go yourself but not drag your friends or family to.

Category 3
Fantastic for non-enthusiasts and a great family day out but doesn't appeal much to the purist. Not necessarily an authentic experience.

Category 4
Great potential but not quite there. Worth a quick visit if you're near by or as part of a wider day out.

Category 5
Really don't bother with this railway...

 

[pdeaves]

First step - have a measure of what makes a railway one of the top x number - mileage? number of services? turnover? visitor numbers?

Or even 'most authentic'. The 'big names' mentioned have a very different feel to some of the so-called lesser railways but maybe something is lost in being a big tourist attraction (not saying that's wrong).

It thus becomes very subjective, essentially 'I think these ones are best, you think those ones are best'.

 

[DarloRich]

First step - have a measure of what makes a railway one of the top x number - mileage? number of services? turnover? visitor numbers?

Ones i like Hence why the ELR isnt on there. I found it dreary and boring tbh

 

[martinsh]

What about the KWVR and the Mid Hants ?

 

[70014IronDuke]

What about the KWVR and the Mid Hants ?

Both relegated to the Championship last year - given penalty points for too many Thomas days.

 

[mushroomchow]

K&ESR?

See, this is the problem - there are so many great railways in this country. We're truly blessed with the rich heritage we have.

I have heard it said that a line needs a mainline connection to be considered "Premier League", but that's debatable as there are a few such lines that have far less going for them than many "island" railways besides an occasional charter. Case in point, I love both but it's hard to justify calling either the NNR or MNR "Premier League".

 

[UP13]

Both relegated to the Championship last year - given penalty points for too many Thomas days.

Mid-Hants surely avoided the drop due to points earned from RATs.

In all seriousness, Thomas Days will create the enthusiasts of tomorrow. It's the Peppa Pig Days that should be given penalty points...

 

[Cowley]

Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch - If you scaled it up would blow all the others out the water with double track running, scale 75 mph speeds and Pacifics everywhere...

Dartmouth Steam Railway - The only one that pays its shareholders a profit I believe? Still bringing trainloads of passengers into the town.

The Swanage - Beautiful scenery, taking traffic off the local roads. Mainline connection with railtours arriving at a seaside destination.

It’s completely subjective as others have said. No one railway has every single positive thing to tick all the boxes.
You could draw up some kind of chart with different headings and decide what things count for a certain amount of points, i.e - mainline connection, atmosphere of stations, places served etc and tally them all up for each line.

Or you could just not worry about it too much and go to the pub instead.

 

[4141]

Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch - If you scaled it up would blow all the others out the water with double track running, scale 75 mph speeds and Pacifics everywhere...

Dartmouth Steam Railway - The only one that pays its shareholders a profit I believe? Still bringing trainloads of passengers into the town.

The Swanage - Beautiful scenery, taking traffic off the local roads. Mainline connection with railtours arriving at a seaside destination.

It’s completely subjective as others have said. No one railway has every single positive thing to tick all the boxes.
You could draw up some kind of chart with different headings and decide what things count for a certain amount of points, i.e - mainline connection, atmosphere of stations, places served etc and tally them all up for each line.

Or you could just not worry about it too much and go to the pub instead.

Excellent post sir - especially the last line!

 

[richw]

Dartmouth Steam Railway - The only one that pays its shareholders a profit I believe? Still bringing trainloads of passengers into the town.

Millions a year in profits!

 

[UP13]

Millions a year in profits!

Went on it on a steam tour a few months ago. Absolutely stunning scenery.

 

[richw]

Went on it on a steam tour a few months ago. Absolutely stunning scenery.

I went to their Beer and Music Festival last month. We must have spent a small fortune as a group of 6 as we went 2 days in a row!

 

[vlad]

Or you could just not worry about it too much and go to the pub instead.

Which heritage railway would you use to get to the pub?

 

[UP13]

Which heritage railway would you use to get to the pub?

Watercress - the train IS the pub.

 

[AndyY1951]

As far as I'm concerned a railway can only be in the 'Premier League' if it has a main-line connection, or is actively working to establish one. By 'a main-line connection' I mean it should be feasible and easy to arrive as a passenger off the network and transfer to the heritage line without resorting to road transport, and even better, in addition to this, a physical rail connection to enable incoming charter traffic or visiting locomotives to transfer to the heritage line.
So the Llangollen or GWSR are not in my definition of Premier League railways, whatever their other attributes. Hopefully the GWSR will extend to Honeybourne at some time in the future, but the Llangollen seems content to remain isolated, so I have never visited.

 

[HLE]

Went on it on a steam tour a few months ago. Absolutely stunning scenery.

I read somewhere their staff are paid too. It’s a well ran operation.

 

[Calthrop]

As far as I'm concerned a railway can only be in the 'Premier League' if it has a main-line connection, or is actively working to establish one. By 'a main-line connection' I mean it should be feasible and easy to arrive as a passenger off the network and transfer to the heritage line without resorting to road transport, and even better, in addition to this, a physical rail connection to enable incoming charter traffic or visiting locomotives to transfer to the heritage line.
So the Llangollen or GWSR are not in my definition of Premier League railways, whatever their other attributes. Hopefully the GWSR will extend to Honeybourne at some time in the future, but the Llangollen seems content to remain isolated, so I have never visited.

I'm inclined to agree here (am hard to please anyway, as regards heritage railways); but would recognise that some lines have been luckier than others, as regards connection to the passenger network -- feel that a line not fortunate in that respect, and thus isolated, can still be an excellent one in its own right. I do tend to think better of isolated undertakings, which are actually trying to become "connected".

 

[UP13]

I'll set the cat among the pigeons... (I tried to post this earlier but for some reason it needs moderator approval).

For arguments sake I'll arbitrarily create categories and the collective wisdom on here can argue about which category specific railways fit in.

Category 1 ('premier league')
A railway that strongly appeals to both enthusiasts and non-enthusiasts including young families. Excellent station facilities and decent coaches. Objects of interest at stations whether it's a museum, pub, cafe, shed, playground etc. Lovely scenery, decent car parking facilities and preferably a mainline connection. The sort of place you would travel a decent distance to have a whole day out or would pay decent money to visit on a railtour.

Category 2
Great for the enthusiasts but not great for non-enthusiasts. You'd happily go yourself but not drag your friends or family to.

Category 3
Fantastic for non-enthusiasts and a great family day out but doesn't appeal much to the purist. Not necessarily an authentic experience.

Category 4
Great potential but not quite there. Worth a quick visit if you're near by or as part of a wider day out.

Category 5
Really don't bother with this railway...

 

[richw]

I read somewhere their staff are paid too. It’s a well ran operation.

Correct. It’s run as a multi million pound business with the boats, buses and trains. In 2016 it turned a profit of £1.4m on a £5m turnover.
Sir William McAlpine was one of the largest share holders at the last set of accounts. Unsure how that stands since his death.
The railway staff I believe all hold PRIV passes as well.

 

[JayDee]

Correct. It’s run as a multi million pound business with the boats, buses and trains. In 2016 it turned a profit of £1.4m on a £5m turnover.
Sir William McAlpine was one of the largest share holders at the last set of accounts. Unsure how that stands since his death.
The railway staff I believe all hold PRIV passes as well.

The McAlpine Estate now holds the shares, and Jeremy Hosking's increased his shareholding in the company since then. In 2017 the company made a profit, post tax, of £406,916. The year prior the company itself made a record profit, but a huge portion of this came with a one off sale of £950k, which was used to settle a loan that had no penalties for early payment.

=========================

As for "what defines a premier league line" I'd say it would be general appeal and economic impact if it wasn't there. Between them, the WHR and FR draw in a staggering £25m in extra economic activity per year. When the SVR closed due to the track erosion businesses actually went to the wall due to the drop in people coming to the region. Even a "tiny" line like the KWVR can count itself as a member of the Premier League due to its ability to nab the Bronte crowd and historically interesting stock roster.

So, a Premier League Line should generally go from "somewhere" to "somewhere" ideally with both ends of the line being interesting places in their own right. They should encourage people out of their cars for day trips through an area that might otherwise be clogged up with traffic and, hopefully, act as an initial "draw" for a family or couple to head to the region to begin with.

So the Premier League is still defined as a bit nebulous, but there are probably around 10-15 or so railways that can consider themselves in this bracket. (Out of around 100+ or so railways...) The top of my head list is below, showing 14 that fit this category.

• Severn Valley Railway
• Keighley and Worth Valley Railway
• WHR&FR
• Talyllyn Railway
• Kent and East Sussex
• Gloucester & Warwickshire Steam Railway
• Dartmouth Steam Railway
• North Yorkshire Moors Railway
• Bluebell Railway
• Swanage Railway
• West Somerset Railway
• East Lancs Railway
• Strathspey Railway
• Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch Railway