'Premier League' Heritage Railways

[krus_aragon]

You're missing the Snowdon Mountain Railway from your list; 130K visitors pa in 2014. GCR was 130K in 2016.

The SMR have, in years past, insisted that they are not a heritage railway, and that visitors should not be disappointed at their use of more economical diesel traction. They more-or-less stated that they were in the business of taking people up and down the mountain, as they'd always been.

Now that they're owned by "Heritage Great Britain" they've changed their tune slightly, and are actively marketing "Heritage Steam" and "Traditional Diesel" haulage.

 

[Cowley]

The SMR have, in years past, insisted that they are not a heritage railway, and that visitors should not be disappointed at their use of more economical diesel traction. They more-or-less stated that they were in the business of taking people up and down the mountain, as they'd always been.

Now that they're owned by "Heritage Great Britain" they've changed their tune slightly, and are actively marketing "Heritage Steam" and "Traditional Diesel" haulage.

Hmm. The only time (as an adult) that I took the SMR to the top I had one of the diesels up, and then steam back down...
Distinctly the wrong way around to do it.

 

[A Challenge]

Hmm. The only time (as an adult) that I took the SMR to the top I had one of the diesels up, and then steam back down...
Distinctly the wrong way around to do it.

Next time try steam up and walk down then!

 

[Tim R-T-C]

It is interesting that most of people's favourite and most desired aspects of a heritage railway are beyond the abilities of most lines to change. The double-track running of the GCR, the mainline connections, the local facilities etc.

For me a major factor is the organisation of the railway itself. Running a varied calendar with events to appeal to all-comers, having an accessible website with easy details of parking or access, running days and timetables - particularly on mobile.

 

[reddragon]

A premier league railway is more than someones favourite line it is: -

A railway of a certain size / length that carries at least say 100k passengers per year over at least x distance, on at least x days per year and goes to / from somewhere so provide a degree of transport rather than just a ride.

It will have adequate events to cater for a wide audience, have good facilities (car park / catering) and a decent variety of locos / rolling stock.

It will also be able to restore / maintain what it has, carry out work for other railways and only be dependant on external specialist skills.

It should make enough money to operate, maintain and improve the railway without additional fundraising. Fundraising should be for major new projects / improvements / extension.

The railway should be able to extend quickly when funds are raised.

Railways such as the Llangollen / Gloucester & Warwickshire meet this criteria in addition to some older 'big' railways. Perhaps someone could create a spreadsheet with all these factors to create a league table?

 

[bramling]

Hmm. The only time (as an adult) that I took the SMR to the top I had one of the diesels up, and then steam back down...
Distinctly the wrong way around to do it.

SMR isn’t really a heritage railway in the same way as most of the others. It was purposely built to perform the function it carries out today.

Having said that I’m not a fan of the modern carriages, but they have a high capacity which is presumably part of the business model. The steam carriages are rather nicer - thankfully they have taken the trouble to build pretty good replicas.

The SMR unfortunately gets a lot of bad reviews from visitors, often to do with weather, overcrowding and the price charged - as well as people who climb to the top then decide they can’t be bothered to walk down and expect to find a space waiting for them on the next train. I do think many people have unrealistic expectations - the railway runs at capacity during peak season and the logistics of taking people up and down a mountain are unique.

I went on it this year and was impressed. The best way to “do” it is to walk up and down, thus not having to worry about booking the railway in advance and taking a gamble on the weather, and allowing as much time as desired at the summit, then ride the railway up and down just to tick that off the list. The steam carriages are rather more comfortable and seats are reserved, but even then there seem to be squabbles about who sits where.

One could argue that the Ffestiniog is another railway which operates “in the now”, with many of its carriages being modern. However they do maintain a superb collection of vintage vehicles and there’s often one or two such vehicles on the top end of the train, mainly to provide extra capacity but with the benefit of keeping enthusiasts happy at the same time. Likewise the Welsh Highland.

 

[johnr57]

It will also be able to restore / maintain what it has, carry out work for other railways and only be dependant on external specialist skills.

?

Hits the nail on the head for me

 

[Belperpete]

A premier league railway is more than someones favourite line it is: -

A railway of a certain size / length that carries at least say 100k passengers per year over at least x distance, on at least x days per year and goes to / from somewhere so provide a degree of transport rather than just a ride.

It will have adequate events to cater for a wide audience, have good facilities (car park / catering) and a decent variety of locos / rolling stock.

It will also be able to restore / maintain what it has, carry out work for other railways and only be dependant on external specialist skills.

It should make enough money to operate, maintain and improve the railway without additional fundraising. Fundraising should be for major new projects / improvements / extension.

The railway should be able to extend quickly when funds are raised.

Railways such as the Llangollen / Gloucester & Warwickshire meet this criteria in addition to some older 'big' railways. Perhaps someone could create a spreadsheet with all these factors to create a league table?

I could quibble with a few of the points (for example, the GCR doesn't really go anywhere but is surely a premier-league line), but broadly I agree.

The problem with the speadsheet idea (although it would be great if someone could do one, but it would be a lot of work) is where exactly you draw the dividing line, and what weighting you give the various factors.

The way I make my decision is by comparing with those lines that are unquestionably in the premier league: the F&WHR, SVR, GCR, NYMR, and Bluebell. The K&WVR, for example, while undoubtedly an enjoyable and historically significant line, really cannot be said to be in the same league as say the Bluebell.

 

[Belperpete]

The SMR have, in years past, insisted that they are not a heritage railway

There are a number of lines that are difficult to quantify as "heritage". Especially those that still do the same function as they always have done, and without voluntary assistance. Does the Great Orme tramway count as a heritage line, for example? The Isle of Man steam railway, and the Manx Electric? Like the Snowdon, I seem to recall that the Dartmouth line at one time was trying not to be classified as "heritage", it was just a commercial company that happened to be in the business of running steam trains.
If the Snowdon Mountain counts as a heritage railway, then why not say the Metropolitan line, or the Northern line?

 

[philthetube]

There are a number of lines that are difficult to quantify as "heritage". Especially those that still do the same function as they always have done, and without voluntary assistance. Does the Great Orme tramway count as a heritage line, for example? The Isle of Man steam railway, and the Manx Electric? Like the Snowdon, I seem to recall that the Dartmouth line at one time was trying not to be classified as "heritage", it was just a commercial company that happened to be in the business of running steam trains.
If the Snowdon Mountain counts as a heritage railway, then why not say the Metropolitan line, or the Northern line?

Bakerloo line is a better example with its 46 year old trains, with the best part of another 10 to go.

 

[krus_aragon]

There are a number of lines that are difficult to quantify as "heritage". Especially those that still do the same function as they always have done, and without voluntary assistance. Does the Great Orme tramway count as a heritage line, for example?

In the Great Orme's case, I'd say yes. It's an attraction in a Victorian seaside resort, and fully embraces the heritage/Victoriana feel.

 

[reddragon]

I could quibble with a few of the points (for example, the GCR doesn't really go anywhere but is surely a premier-league line), but broadly I agree.

.

Loughborough to somewhere near Leicester and one day a connection to Nottingham trams is certainly more somewhere than most!

 

[Belperpete]

Bakerloo line is a better example with its 46 year old trains, with the best part of another 10 to go.

Good point! However, my comparison with the Metropolitan was because SMR uses modern stock and a modern signalling system on an antique line.

 

[Belperpete]

Loughborough to somewhere near Leicester and one day a connection to Nottingham trams is certainly more somewhere than most!

The original poster stated:

goes to / from somewhere so provide a degree of transport rather than just a ride.

While Leicester North is slightly more accessible than say Dduallt, it is not somewhere that many people start or end their journey, and so doesn't really meet the criteria of providing a degree of transport, as opposed to just somewhere to ride to, that the original poster specified. Fully agree that once GCR provides a link between Nottingham tram and Loughborough it will provide a useful transport link.

 

[Belperpete]

In the Great Orme's case, I'd say yes. It's an attraction in a Victorian seaside resort, and fully embraces the heritage/Victoriana feel.

Whilst I agree that the Great Orme is surely heritage, I think I have to question the criteria you are applying. For example, I am not convinced that where a line happens to be located is a real deciding factor. For example, the Bakerloo line is in a far older city.
And likewise I am not convinced that a line has to "fully embrace the heritage/Victorian feel" to count as heritage. Because if so, that would discount lines that use diesels or Mk.1 stock. I think that would rule out most of the generally-accepted premiere-league lines.
Rather than just say "xx is heritage" and "yy is not heritage", I was questioning how we decide, how we draw the dividing line. For example, many lines that I think most people would classify as heritage often use BR DMUs, the EVR even uses Mk2 Gatwick stock. What makes these heritage, and the Isle of Wight Line not?

 

[xotGD]

I could quibble with a few of the points (for example, the GCR doesn't really go anywhere but is surely a premier-league line), but broadly I agree.

The problem with the speadsheet idea (although it would be great if someone could do one, but it would be a lot of work) is where exactly you draw the dividing line, and what weighting you give the various factors.

The way I make my decision is by comparing with those lines that are unquestionably in the premier league: the F&WHR, SVR, GCR, NYMR, and Bluebell. The K&WVR, for example, while undoubtedly an enjoyable and historically significant line, really cannot be said to be in the same league as say the Bluebell.

The K&WVR does, however, benefit from a significant gradient, which means that locomotives have to do some work. Three miles with thrash is better than a fifteen mile totter.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

IMHO "Heritage" is an overused expression and prefer to call them "tourist" or "leisure" railways which seems more honest.

PH

 

[Stopbar]

Bure Valley Railway?
A. From Aylesham to Wroxham
B. Runs every day from Mar - October plus weekends throughout year and Santa's in Dec
C. Engineering other than specialist in house
D. All Steam operation other than last service in Yellow service
E. Links to main line at Wroxham
F. Adequate car parking
G. Decent Catering
H. Good model shop
I. 9 mile route length with numerous gradients
J. 20 mph line speed = 50-60 mph scale, loco working properly hard
K. Long trains

Meets most of the criteria mentioned previously.....!!

 

[Ianno87]

Bakerloo line is a better example with its 46 year old trains, with the best part of another 10 to go.

The Bakerloo is definitely the last remaining "retro" tube experience!

 

[satisnek]

I seem to recall having this discussion about 30 years ago (it was Divisions 1-4 back then!). It was much easier then, with a small number of leading, largely complete lines and a lot of new and/or expanding organisations. Even the Great Central was just a 5 mile single track line in those days! Since then of course we've seen the development of lines like the ELR and GWSR which have largely been built from scratch and hence the divide between 'preserved' and 'heritage' railways.

I would say that the Mid-Hants is probably the last true 'preserved' line (even though they have slapped green paint on everything and appear to operate it very much as a 'tourist railway'); later schemes have not had the benefit of taking over existing infrastructure and have therefore required a significant amount of rebuilding.

The Bakerloo is definitely the last remaining "retro" tube experience!

As it was in 1987/8. What goes around comes around!

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

I seem to recall having this discussion about 30 years ago (it was Divisions 1-4 back then!). It was much easier then, with a small number of leading, largely complete lines and a lot of new and/or expanding organisations. Even the Great Central was just a 5 mile single track line in those days! Since then of course we've seen the development of lines like the ELR and GWSR which have largely been built from scratch and hence the divide between 'preserved' and 'heritage' railways.

I would say that the Mid-Hants is probably the last true 'preserved' line (even though they have slapped green paint on everything and appear to operate it very much as a 'tourist railway'); later schemes have not had the benefit of taking over existing infrastructure and have therefore required a significant amount of rebuilding.

As it was in 1987/8. What goes around comes around!

It's all a bit subjective as to which line is or is not "premier league". Every single one of them is a "tourist" railway though.

PH

 

[krus_aragon]

It recently occurred to me that a really good (if fanciful) reason for being considered a "Premier League" heritage railway would be if you were operating on a disused portion of the "Premier Line", i.e. the LNWR. But having had a think (and a quick look on the LNWR Society's pages) I can't name any such railways.

Can someone contradict me, or did the LNWR get the best alignment on all the important routes first, and then only close lines that were such basket cases that no heritage railway will touch them?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

It's all a bit subjective as to which line is or is not "premier league". Every single one of them is a "tourist" railway though.
PH

Tourist Railway is generally used to refer to a heritage line with appeal to the general public (ie. tourists), rather than one that appeals purely to railway enthusiasts. It can sometimes be a derogatory term from enthusiasts, but most of the most financially viable heritage lines are in the tourist trade - a Premier League railway should be able to cover both bases.

This means it will predominantly run steam services, the start or end points are likely to be in tourist towns or near to tourist attractions, there is likely to be a more distinctly period feel at the stations.

 

[E759]

It recently occurred to me that a really good (if fanciful) reason for being considered a "Premier League" heritage railway would be if you were operating on a disused portion of the "Premier Line", i.e. the LNWR. But having had a think (and a quick look on the LNWR Society's pages) I can't name any such railways.

Can someone contradict me, or did the LNWR get the best alignment on all the important routes first, and then only close lines that were such basket cases that no heritage railway will touch them?

WHR Dinas to Caernarfon.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Tourist Railway is generally used to refer to a heritage line with appeal to the general public (ie. tourists), rather than one that appeals purely to railway enthusiasts. It can sometimes be a derogatory term from enthusiasts, but most of the most financially viable heritage lines are in the tourist trade - a Premier League railway should be able to cover both bases.

This means it will predominantly run steam services, the start or end points are likely to be in tourist towns or near to tourist attractions, there is likely to be a more distinctly period feel at the stations.

"Up to a point Lord Copper" Quite a few enthusiasts seem only to have a fairly hazy idea of constitutes "heritage"

PH

 

[satisnek]

It's all a bit subjective as to which line is or is not "premier league". Every single one of them is a "tourist" railway though.

PH

I can see where you're coming from, I was using the term 'tourist railway' as the opposite to 'working museum'. The Mid-Hants leans towards the former whilst the Severn Valley leans towards the latter (in neither case is it absolute). Both, however, can be considered as 'Premier League'.

 

[krus_aragon]

WHR Dinas to Caernarfon.

I considered it, but then dismissed it as being of a different gauge (though perhaps I shouldn't have). Is it really the only one, though?

 

[E759]

...One could argue that the Ffestiniog is another railway which operates “in the now”, with many of its carriages being modern. However they do maintain a superb collection of vintage vehicles and there’s often one or two such vehicles on the top end of the train, mainly to provide extra capacity but with the benefit of keeping enthusiasts happy at the same time. Likewise the Welsh Highland.

Visited and rode the FR and WHR last week and I'd put both in the tourist category. Not much heritage in evidence. Great lines though!

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Visited and rode the FR and WHR last week and I'd put both in the tourist category. Not much heritage in evidence. Great lines though!

The F.R. has a great deal more "heritage" than many have. Why not just call them "leisure" railways.

PH

 

[E759]

Based on my small sample of 26 railways visited in 2018 (England and Wales) I’d objectively state that is untrue. There is not much evidence of heritage on the FR compared to most railways, even railways written off by many on this forum.

I very much enjoyed the FR but (1) it is run as a modern tourist line carting 99.9% tourists with little attempt to explain the history or context on the line and (2) half the line doesn’t qualify anyway as it is new build. Compare to Tal-y-lln which is a model heritage railway with context explained in a museum and by staff.

There is a cult around the the FR and WHR which I don’t buy into. I suspect people remember what these lines were once like and turn a blind eye to what they are today. Judging by the average age of Members and Life Members present at Superpower, the attraction of these lines to enthusiasts looks to be on the wane.

Be clear I’m not criticising FWHR for being tourist lines, I’m just trying to point out that the nature of these lines in 2018 is quite different to say in 1985 when I last visited. Too many rose-tinted spectacles worn on this forum.