'Premier League' Heritage Railways

[Calthrop]

I considered it, but then dismissed it as being of a different gauge (though perhaps I shouldn't have). Is it really the only one, though?

The Nene Valley Railway is ex-LNWR: easternmost end of that company's routes between Peterborough; and Northampton and Rugby.

 

[krus_aragon]

The Nene Valley Railway is ex-LNWR: easternmost end of that company's routes between Peterborough; and Northampton and Rugby.

Thanks for that example.

I've also remembered why I discounted the WHR at Dinas: You can hardly claim to be the inheritor of the Premier Line title if you've switched to narrow gauge and can't run any LNWR stock!

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Based on my small sample of 26 railways visited in 2018 (England and Wales) I’d objectively state that is untrue. There is not much evidence of heritage on the FR compared to most railways, even railways written off by many on this forum.

I very much enjoyed the FR but (1) it is run as a modern tourist line carting 99.9% tourists with little attempt to explain the history or context on the line and (2) half the line doesn’t qualify anyway as it is new build. Compare to Tal-y-lln which is a model heritage railway with context explained in a museum and by staff.

There is a cult around the the FR and WHR which I don’t buy into. I suspect people remember what these lines were once like and turn a blind eye to what they are today. Judging by the average age of Members and Life Members present at Superpower, the attraction of these lines to enthusiasts looks to be on the wane.

Be clear I’m not criticising FWHR for being tourist lines, I’m just trying to point out that the nature of these lines in 2018 is quite different to say in 1985 when I last visited. Too many rose-tinted spectacles worn on this forum.

Shows how subjective this sort of thing is. To my mind the T.R. really "lost it" with the overbuilt station at Tywyn Wharf.

PH

 

[DarloRich]

this has simply become a list of everyones favorite railways and/or criteria to ensure those favorites make the "list"

 

[E759]

this has simply become a list of everyones favorite railways and/or criteria to ensure those favorites make the "list"

and criteria to exclude those not deemed worthy (eg SMR viz visitor numbers)

 

[E759]

Shows how subjective this sort of thing is. To my mind the T.R. really "lost it" with the overbuilt station at Tywyn Wharf.

PH

Wake up and smell the coffee.

None of these railways are run for the benefit of “enthusiasts”.

The views of “enthusiasts” as expressed on this forum are utterly irrelevant to the vitality of heritage railways. Embrace reality and move onwards.

(A great cooked breakfast was on offer at Tywyn and being enjoyed by non-travelling customers. This is the future.)

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Wake up and smell the coffee.

None of these railways are run for the benefit of “enthusiasts”.

The views of “enthusiasts” as expressed on this forum are utterly irrelevant to the vitality of heritage railways. Embrace reality and move onwards.

(A great cooked breakfast was on offer at Tywyn and being enjoyed by non-travelling customers. This is the future.)

Whoever "signed off" this design is the one who needed to wake up. Catering, providing it is done profitably, is part of running a tourist railway but people need to have a care when a site is re-developed.

PH

 

[Flying Phil]

Wake up and smell the coffee.

None of these railways are run for the benefit of “enthusiasts”.

The views of “enthusiasts” as expressed on this forum are utterly irrelevant to the vitality of heritage railways. Embrace reality and move onwards.

(A great cooked breakfast was on offer at Tywyn and being enjoyed by non-travelling customers. This is the future.)

I agree that we may be guilty of being partial to "our" railway and that, as a group, "enthusiasts" would not, on their own, be sufficient to keep any of these railways solvent........but I do believe that it was "enthusiasts" that led the fight to get these railways saved in the first instance ........and their free labour keeps them running now at such a high standard.

 

[E759]

Whoever "signed off" this design is the one who needed to wake up. Catering, providing it is done profitably, is part of running a tourist railway but people need to have a care when a site is re-developed.

PH

Just to clarify Paul, are you talking about Tywyn or Caenarfon? Caenarfon (the new one) reminds me of London Bridge. A station fit for the 21st Century. No idea if Caenarfon will include catering though. Considering the length of the FR and the WHR the lack of catering at their stations is well below that of all most Premier League lines. And that's an objective comment too.

Stephen

 

[E759]

I agree that we may be guilty of being partial to "our" railway and that, as a group, "enthusiasts" would not, on their own, be sufficient to keep any of these railways solvent........but I do believe that it was "enthusiasts" that led the fight to get these railways saved in the first instance ........and their free labour keeps them running now at such a high standard.

Oh very, very true Phil that enthusiasts led the fight and fought the fight! I'm not disputing that at all. In the case of the FR that was a glorious battle indeed.

As to free labour I don't have much data only a few anecdotes I've picked up which (i) confirm this is indeed the case and (ii) note a shift of free labour also coming from non-enthusiasts. The latter is very interesting indeed.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Just to clarify Paul, are you talking about Tywyn or Caenarfon? Caenarfon (the new one) reminds me of London Bridge. A station fit for the 21st Century. No idea if Caenarfon will include catering though. Considering the length of the FR and the WHR the lack of catering at their stations is well below that of all most Premier League lines. And that's an objective comment too.

Stephen

Tywyn. Have not seen Caernarfon other than in photographs. Don't want to become involved in this Premier League stuff.

PH.

 

[etr221]

The Nene Valley Railway is ex-LNWR: easternmost end of that company's routes between Peterborough; and Northampton and Rugby.

Also ex LNWR is the Pontypool and Blaenavon

 

[Flying Phil]

Oh very, very true Phil that enthusiasts led the fight and fought the fight! I'm not disputing that at all. In the case of the FR that was a glorious battle indeed.

As to free labour I don't have much data only a few anecdotes I've picked up which (i) confirm this is indeed the case and (ii) note a shift of free labour also coming from non-enthusiasts. The latter is very interesting indeed.

Your point about the non enthusiast volunteer is indeed very interesting -I'm sure there is a very good basis for a thesis on the health and mental well being of volunteer labour of (mainly) retirees. Certainly the social aspect is as important as the actual work being done - and is often under-rated. Younger volunteers are also picking up life skills as well as technical knowledge.

 

[Belperpete]

There is a cult around the the FR and WHR which I don’t buy into. I suspect people remember what these lines were once like and turn a blind eye to what they are today. Be clear I’m not criticising FWHR for being tourist lines, I’m just trying to point out that the nature of these lines in 2018 is quite different to say in 1985 when I last visited. Too many rose-tinted spectacles worn on this forum.

Obviously your recollection of the FR in the 1980's is markedly different to mine. What I recall of the 1980s is a line that was struggling financially with the costs of rebuilding, and was clearly showing it. The generally-run-down and decrepit feeling, the varnished plywood coaches, tin-cars with ex-bus seating, the almost-daily breakdowns, the almost total lack of regard for anything historic if it didn't earn money (e.g. removing the beading from the UK's very-first bogie coaches), the "square" Earl, the controversial redevelopment of Harbour station, and the truly appalling levels of customer service ("pack 'em in and ignore 'em" being the order of the day during high summer).

Too right that the FR of today is markedly different. A railway that looks both cared-for, and cares for the comfort of its passengers. A thriving Heritage Group that is actively supported by the railway's management. The bogie-cars and bug-boxes lovingly restored to original condition. DLG built to traditional profile. Welsh Pony being restored. The recreation of lost historic locos and vehicles (the single Fairlie, Spooners boat, the curly-roof van, etc etc). The careful restoration of historic buildings, such as at Dinas, Boston Lodge, Coed-y-Bleiddiau, etc. The annual and popular Vintage weekend. The gravity slate trains. The interpretation panels at various stations, and in some of the historic coaches, to explain their history. Next year Waunfawr will be rebuilt in historic NWNG style. The skills gained in restoring the historic coaches has been used to build new coaches using the same techniques, enabling the 1980's tin-cars to be phased-out in favour of coaches that, although modern, have a very historic feel (many passengers are very surprised to discover that the coach they think is a hundred years old was only built a couple of years ago, and the new pulman observation cars in particular are very popular).

The very constrained station sites at both Porthmadog and Blaenau have prevented the provision of a proper museum (a long-felt want). However, the new station at Caernarfon has been purpose-built with an exhibition space that will be used to highlight the railway's history.

Yes, the F&WHR is undoubtedly a tourist line, but this was no-less true in the 1980s. The major difference between the 1980s and today is that the FR is now a lot more careful and appreciative of its heritage than it was in the 1980s, and is doing far more to preserve it and show-case it than was the case in the 1980s. (The same is true of other heritage lines that have come of age. I can remember being quite appalled by some of the things the Bluebell were doing at Sheffield Park in the 1980s, for example, whereas more recent developments have been far more in keeping).

To be honest, I am quite staggered that you seem to prefer the FR of the 1980s to that of today. Just what was it that you preferred about the FR of the 1980's?

 

[mushroomchow]

OK, let's modify the subject slightly.

Which standalone lines do you think would be "Premier League" if they got themselves a mainline connection? I'm talking hypothetically here - the practicality of actually doing so is kind of moot.

Llangollen has to be first on that list for me, though some would argue it's already worthy of that status. I'd obviously list the GCR too, but A) people already categorise it as such and B) it's in the process of getting that connection.

 

[Tim M]

Visited and rode the FR and WHR last week and I'd put both in the tourist category. Not much heritage in evidence. Great lines though!

Heritage in the context of the Ffestiniog Railway is much more than the eye can see. It is as much the history that goes back to the Festiniog Railway Company Act of Parliament of 1832 and events leading up to that. It’s heritage includes influencing the development of narrow gauge railways in other parts of the world. It is an ongoing heritage of advancement and meeting new marketing challenges and opportunities.

Many other heritage railways set out to represent a particular era or theme, and many do that well. The FRS era is now, but can and does include recreating earlier periods extremely well. In two weeks we will be holding our Victorian Weekend, where else can you travel on trains with the right locomotives from the 1860’s, 1870’s, 1920’s, or for that matter 1950’s, 1970’s or 2010’s? There will be gravity trains, no one else does that.

 

[AndyY1951]

OK, let's modify the subject slightly.

Which standalone lines do you think would be "Premier League" if they got themselves a mainline connection? I'm talking hypothetically here - the practicality of actually doing so is kind of moot.

Llangollen has to be first on that list for me, though some would argue it's already worthy of that status. I'd obviously list the GCR too, but A) people already categorise it as such and B) it's in the process of getting that connection.

The Llangollen and the GWSR are two I would then include. And as you say, the GCR is working as fast as the money can be raised to achieve a connection, as well as the Midland and GC Loughborough stations being tolerably close.

 

[Peter West]

Much enjoyed reading this strand and we were having a similar debate a month or so before where I was trying to introduce the aesthetics of the experience of travelling into the equation, in particular the coaches and the carriages(!).

In terms of hard measures for me the length of track/duration of ride is a big factor so sadly the Swanage becomes less attractive as it,s barely half an hour,s ride. Maybe some of the other Premier League contenders may also struggle here? For me at least a one hour ride would somehow be part of the main criteria with a major attraction (at least for enthusiasts)en route like the Severn Valley,s Engine House at Highley. The basis of this is that most folks will have driven a car for at least an hour to get to the railway start point so the length of the rail journey needs to be longer if you follow. A kind of pleasure to compensate for the pain in time expended. Plus there is also the need for a proper day out and going from somewhere to somewhere is also measurable I think.

In contrast to Swanage the FR Caernarfon to Porthmadog trip at over 2 hours and 40 miles becomes a serious contender. Their website is also first class incidentally and it,s now on my list to visit along with West Somerset.

As has been mentioned the softer measures can get very subjective although nonetheless meaningful to those who hold these things dear...restored period stations, landscape and scenery, a bit of grime...and a variety of carriages and coaches to experience and admire.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Much enjoyed reading this strand and we were having a similar debate a month or so before where I was trying to introduce the aesthetics of the experience of travelling into the equation, in particular the coaches and the carriages(!).

In terms of hard measures for me the length of track/duration of ride is a big factor so sadly the Swanage becomes less attractive as it,s barely half an hour,s ride. Maybe some of the other Premier League contenders may also struggle here? For me at least a one hour ride would somehow be part of the main criteria with a major attraction (at least for enthusiasts)en route like the Severn Valley,s Engine House at Highley. The basis of this is that most folks will have driven a car for at least an hour to get to the railway start point so the length of the rail journey needs to be longer if you follow. A kind of pleasure to compensate for the pain in time expended. Plus there is also the need for a proper day out and going from somewhere to somewhere is also measurable I think.

In contrast to Swanage the FR Caernarfon to Porthmadog trip at over 2 hours and 40 miles becomes a serious contender. Their website is also first class incidentally and it,s now on my list to visit along with West Somerset.

As has been mentioned the softer measures can get very subjective although nonetheless meaningful to those who hold these things dear...restored period stations, landscape and scenery, a bit of grime...and a variety of carriages and coaches to experience and admire.

I wouldn't think that "grime" was at all premium.

PH

 

[bramling]

Much enjoyed reading this strand and we were having a similar debate a month or so before where I was trying to introduce the aesthetics of the experience of travelling into the equation, in particular the coaches and the carriages(!).

In terms of hard measures for me the length of track/duration of ride is a big factor so sadly the Swanage becomes less attractive as it,s barely half an hour,s ride. Maybe some of the other Premier League contenders may also struggle here? For me at least a one hour ride would somehow be part of the main criteria with a major attraction (at least for enthusiasts)en route like the Severn Valley,s Engine House at Highley. The basis of this is that most folks will have driven a car for at least an hour to get to the railway start point so the length of the rail journey needs to be longer if you follow. A kind of pleasure to compensate for the pain in time expended. Plus there is also the need for a proper day out and going from somewhere to somewhere is also measurable I think.

In contrast to Swanage the FR Caernarfon to Porthmadog trip at over 2 hours and 40 miles becomes a serious contender. Their website is also first class incidentally and it,s now on my list to visit along with West Somerset.

As has been mentioned the softer measures can get very subjective although nonetheless meaningful to those who hold these things dear...restored period stations, landscape and scenery, a bit of grime...and a variety of carriages and coaches to experience and admire.

Whilst I wouldn’t say this defines premier league or not, one factor for me which can make or break the experience on a preserved railway is whether they run compartments. Particularly for a long trip one really doesn’t want to endure screaming kids or for that matter some enthusiast types!

Welsh Highland would really benefit from some compartments, although to be fair carriages 23 and 24 do a reasonable job when running.

 

[Worf]

The new Caernarfon station is unfortunately reminiscent of a public library or council offices. Apparently it was designed that way so it wouldn't compete with the castle? I would imagine that someone probably won a design award for it, but they might have tried to make it look a bit more like a station.

 

[bramling]

The new Caernarfon station is unfortunately reminiscent of a public library or council offices. Apparently it was designed that way so it wouldn't compete with the castle? I would imagine that someone probably won a design award for it, but they might have tried to make it look a bit more like a station.

I suppose to be fair there was never a station at that location before, and it's not even on the original Welsh Highland Railway, so no real purpose served by trying to emulate something which didn't previously exist. I agree it does look rather odd though - it also looks quite small and cramped, although the site is constricted in itself.

 

[Tim M]

I suppose to be fair there was never a station at that location before, and it's not even on the original Welsh Highland Railway, so no real purpose served by trying to emulate something which didn't previously exist. I agree it does look rather odd though - it also looks quite small and cramped, although the site is constricted in itself.

The new station at Caernarfon is the first part of a larger development in this area of the town and is designed to fit into the wider environment. For example the height was constrained so as not to interrupt the views from the houses on the terrace above.

In terms of ‘small and cramped’, having popped my head in the door nearest the platform two days ago the reality is quite the opposite, with greater space than Porthmadog Harbour Station. Light floods in from various sources including the glazed rotunda on the top. It should be open to passengers on Santa trains in December.

 

[Tim M]

The new Caernarfon station is unfortunately reminiscent of a public library or council offices. Apparently it was designed that way so it wouldn't compete with the castle? I would imagine that someone probably won a design award for it, but they might have tried to make it look a bit more like a station.

The problem is what do people mean by ‘making a building look like a Railway station’. I suspect we could have as many answers as there are subscribers to this forum. The design had to fit into the constraints of the site (and possibly ground conditions?) and comply with guidelines set out by various local and Wales stakeholders including CADW; the Welsh equivalent of Historic England.

Having seen it close up two days ago, I think it’s stunning and works well in the environment, let’s look forward to the rest of the regeneration of this area of Caernarfon.

Nobody has received a design award. Yet.....

 

[Tim M]

Whilst I wouldn’t say this defines premier league or not, one factor for me which can make or break the experience on a preserved railway is whether they run compartments. Particularly for a long trip one really doesn’t want to endure screaming kids or for that matter some enthusiast types!

Welsh Highland would really benefit from some compartments, although to be fair carriages 23 and 24 do a reasonable job when running.

Not sure that the WHR is a preserved railway although there are some heritage items to be seen here and there. Carriages 24 has been on the trains this past week and has been used to a small extent. Experience shows some families prefer compartment stock so as not to annoy other passengers.

There are however a significant disadvantages of compartment stock on a journey of over two hours each way. No access to refreshments including decent bottled beer, hot food and for that special occasion afternoon tea. The seating is much less comfortable and windows smaller restricting your view of scenery and the train. Oh and there is no access to the toilet.

 

[bramling]

Not sure that the WHR is a preserved railway although there are some heritage items to be seen here and there. Carriages 24 has been on the trains this past week and has been used to a small extent. Experience shows some families prefer compartment stock so as not to annoy other passengers.

There are however a significant disadvantages of compartment stock on a journey of over two hours each way. No access to refreshments including decent bottled beer, hot food and for that special occasion afternoon tea. The seating is much less comfortable and windows smaller restricting your view of scenery and the train. Oh and there is no access to the toilet.

I had a lovely journey a few weeks ago the whole length on 24, I’d say it was a much more enjoyable journey than in some of the other carriages. I found the seats perfectly okay, and the window view fine. Lack of refreshments not a problem - we stocked up beforehand. Friend did come close to having to pee in a bottle though! The big plus was having a completely undisturbed journey, no parents walking up and down trying to entertain bored kids, which seems common on the WHR due to its length.

To put it a different way, in 24 we could have quite happily have spent the whole day, we didn’t want the journey to end. By contrast in one of the conventional carriages on a recent journey we started to get restless by Rhyd Ddu, and by Beddgelert the experience was starting to feel very torturous - and clearly others felt the same.

 

[Tim M]

Based on my small sample of 26 railways visited in 2018 (England and Wales) I’d objectively state that is untrue. There is not much evidence of heritage on the FR compared to most railways, even railways written off by many on this forum.

I very much enjoyed the FR but (1) it is run as a modern tourist line carting 99.9% tourists with little attempt to explain the history or context on the line and (2) half the line doesn’t qualify anyway as it is new build. Compare to Tal-y-lln which is a model heritage railway with context explained in a museum and by staff.

There is a cult around the the FR and WHR which I don’t buy into. I suspect people remember what these lines were once like and turn a blind eye to what they are today. Judging by the average age of Members and Life Members present at Superpower, the attraction of these lines to enthusiasts looks to be on the wane.

Be clear I’m not criticising FWHR for being tourist lines, I’m just trying to point out that the nature of these lines in 2018 is quite different to say in 1985 when I last visited. Too many rose-tinted spectacles worn on this forum.

I hope you don’t mind me taking a sort of opposite view, and one from within the FR family, but strictly my own views.

The FR as a whole is heritage writ large. It started in 1832 (with earlier origins) with an Act of Parliament, has gone through many peaks and troughs over those 186 years, but is essentially the same Railway Company that continues to change to meet challenges and market needs. It doesn’t have to pretend to be a traditional 1950’s rural branch line, why should it? Our heritage is as much an ethos as it is stone, steel, wood and copper. Just look at work going on to conserve Victorian buildings, immaculately turned out carriages old and new, I could go on.

You mention half the line is new build, actually only two and a half miles out of thirteen and a half, even that new build (the Deviation) is forty years old, and an important part of our heritage. I’m not clear what you mean about ‘cult’, but would point out that average staff age (employees and volunteers) is not that high, membership of the supporting societies is not mandatory. Indeed we have an increasing number of local people working in many areas of the organisation, and have (September 2018) taken on 10 apprentices working on Heritage aspects of the railway supported with Lottery Funding.

Yes the FR today is different to 1985, just as it is different to 1968 when I first volunteered. It is also outwardly different to 1935, 1885 and 1835. But for many of its supporters the underlying ethos of the FR is the same. In a couple of years we will be celebrating 150 years since the Little Wonder trials, a critical moment in the worldwide development of narrow gauge railways.

Come and see us at our Victorian Weekend next week, then you will see heritage writ large.

 

[Worf]

I have to agree with Tim on this, despite our differing views on the new Caernarfon station!

 

[mark edwards]

Very good read and great topic. For me dragging my family along my perspective is skewed. For me I put forward the following experience. Swanage railway has been trying to get the Wareham link activated, My family travelled from Templecombe on the Summer Saturday special £10. What an enjoyable trip in a new train. patronage was good the train was almost full. Generally the train was full of non-enthusiast travellers. The train was direct to Corfe castle were you could change to a Swanage steam service, For me this was a great mix yes the swanage service is short, but you try keeping a family entertained for an hour!!. you get to see modern and preserved side by side. So for me family value is high and should be scored. I would also highlight as parking is terrible on the isle of purbeck the car park at Norden and regular service to swanage by preserved railway is also highly advantagous.

 

[HowardGWR]

Ones i like Hence why the ELR isnt on there. I found it dreary and boring tbh

It sounds genuinely authentic heritage to me, at least, if it reminds you of the 1950s.