Preserved railways' patrons

[railfan99]

Perhaps I travelled on the wrong days, but in trips on preserved railways in 2022 and 2023, the patrons were almost all Caucasian.

Many were couples or travelling on their own. I wasn't on any during school holidays.

Given the UK has many migrants (and locally born) individuals whose ethnicity is from the subcontinent with nations such as India, Pakistan and Bangladesh having many railways, are preserved railways failing to tap into this potential market?

Surely many would be able to afford an occasional day out on a preserved railway.

 

[Iskra]

The KWVR seems to have a reasonable number of East Asian tourists, Haworth seems to be a particularly attraction. I have seen (presumably) local families of Pakistani heritage on board too.

I’m not sure what railways could realistically do to attract more non caucasian riders. Many are located in rural areas so distant from large non-caucasian population areas, some aren’t though so possibly only has potential for a relatively small number of railways.

 

[railfan99]

The KWVR seems to have a reasonable number of East Asian tourists, Haworth seems to be a particularly attraction. I have seen (presumably) local families of Pakistani heritage on board too.

I’m not sure what railways could realistically do to attract more non caucasian riders. Many are located in rural areas so distant from large non-caucasian population areas, some aren’t though so possibly only has potential for a relatively small number of railways.

On the day I used it in September 2024, there was a small number of Japanese travelling from Keighley to Haworth, but this was the exception. I'd call that nation 'northeast Asian' rather than 'east Asian' but perhaps that's spillting hairs.

 

[12C]

The Lakeside and Haverthwaite Railway is very popular with Asian tour groups (especially pre Covid, but numbers seem to be picking up again). Although usually this is as part of a wider tour of the Lake District than the railway specifically.

 

[railfan99]

The Lakeside and Haverthwaite Railway is very popular with Asian tour groups (especially pre Covid, but numbers seem to be picking up again). Although usually this is as part of a wider tour of the Lake District than the railway specifically.

Are they UK residents or people on holidays from say mainland China?

 

[Flying Phil]

The GCR does usually have a few passengers from our multicultural Leicester and Loughborough. However there are only a few who volunteer with us. We also get tourists from elsewhere in the world, but not in great numbers. Although we are central, we are not on the most popular tourist hotspots. I do not have any detailed data though.

 

[Magdalia]

On the day I used it in September 2024, there was a small number of Japanese travelling from Keighley to Haworth, but this was the exception.

The Brontes are huge in Japan, see here:

A Visit from the Brontë Society of Japan

www.bronte.org.uk

On the 25th of August, the Parsonage was visited by three important members of the Brontë Society of Japan: Itsuyo Shimizu, President of the Society; Professor Uchida, emeritus professor, Osaka University; and Mrs Tanaka, the translator. The group, which numbered fifteen in total, returned to the Parsonage on the 26th and was welcomed by Ann Dinsdale, who showed them some of the Society’s new acquisitions, as well as the ‘little book’ on loan from Paris.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I made a trip on the Severn Valley earlier this year (not a busy day) and was struck by the generally diverse nature of the clientele. Relatively close to the West Midlands, of course.

 

[30907]

On the day I used it in September 2024, there was a small number of Japanese travelling from Keighley to Haworth, but this was the exception. I'd call that nation 'northeast Asian' rather than 'east Asian' but perhaps that's spillting hairs.

More common IME are students from the Far East at one of the Leeds universities - my impression is that they are mainland Chinese rather than Japanese.
There is certainly a steady trickle of ethnically South Asian families/groups/couples most days.

EDIT: travelling on the Vintage Train this afternoon confirms this.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The Brontes are huge in Japan.

Indeed. In this regard, there are one or more Japanese language signposts pointing towards the 'Top Withens' ruins (said to perhaps be the setting for Emily Bronte's 'Wuthering Heights') up on the moor above the town.

 

[robvulpes]

As a long-time volunteer on the Ravenglass and Eskdale Railway, I have certainly clocked a noticeable increase (from almost zero 10+ years ago) in Indian-subcontinent ethnic origin families visiting. It's not that uncommon for them to come in large extended-family groups. If there are English language difficulties with older members of the party, often a teenager will step in, quite commonly speaking in a distinctly Lancashire or Yorkshire accent! (This makes me think they are more likely to be day-trippers - reasonably possible from those counties - than staying overnight in the Lake District). Unscientific observation of the cars to which they return in the railway car park suggests that they tend to be those amongst that population who have done well for themselves (expensive 4x4s and big people-carriers).

People of Afro-Carribbean ethnicity are much more uncommon in this part of the world (not just on the railway).

 

[paul1609]

Perhaps I travelled on the wrong days, but in trips on preserved railways in 2022 and 2023, the patrons were almost all Caucasian.

Many were couples or travelling on their own. I wasn't on any during school holidays.

Given the UK has many migrants (and locally born) individuals whose ethnicity is from the subcontinent with nations such as India, Pakistan and Bangladesh having many railways, are preserved railways failing to tap into this potential market?

Surely many would be able to afford an occasional day out on a preserved railway.

Did a count up and visual survey on my last train tonight the 3.35 Bodiam to Tenterden reckon non-caucasian was probably just under 20%. Reckon if you came after the summer school holidays it would be lower than that because the age demographic shifts.

 

[12C]

Are they UK residents or people on holidays from say mainland China?

Generally on holiday, they are usually on organised coach tours doing a tour of the lakes. I’ve seen all sorts of nationalities but it’s very popular with visitors from China and Japan.

 

[Poolie]

I was on the KWVR last Sunday and there were a lot of overseas Bronte fans. Good to see and valuable revenue for the railway.

 

[MisterSheeps]

I think part of the issue is a rural / urban divide. Ethnic minorities tend to live, initially, in the cities. The preserved railways are largely in the rural areas. When I worked in Manchester I had numerous conversations with non Caucasian, or non British, and they mostly said they had never been to the countryside, did not think they would enjoy it. I mountain walk, and seeing a non Caucasian is a rare occurrrence. Covid restrictions brought a notable increase in visits to nearby countryside, a trend which has continued, places such as Bowness, and the country parks around big cities. Preserved railways playing on heritage have almost zero intrinsic appeal to non Europeans (other than the quaintness); the attraction is the ride, scenery and entertainment. My Thai wife likes the open carriages of the narrow gauge, but sees the experience as curious and expensive, not compelling and "must do". If preserved railways are actually in the theme park genre, then cream teas, a few picnic tables, old cars, period uniforms, museums of railway junk, and quasi military, is not much of a compelling attraction.

 

[railfan99]

I think part of the issue is a rural / urban divide. Ethnic minorities tend to live, initially, in the cities. The preserved railways are largely in the rural areas. When I worked in Manchester I had numerous conversations with non Caucasian, or non British, and they mostly said they had never been to the countryside, did not think they would enjoy it. I mountain walk, and seeing a non Caucasian is a rare occurrrence.

I can't disagree with your informative post, but some heritage railways aren't far from major cities. East Lancs Railway is connected by Manchester Metrolink then a short walk or one stop urban bus.

Given many UK households may lack any or large backyards in which children could play if parents could get them off their phones, surely a few must have a desire to visit for special events such as Santa trains even if as you imply cream teas don't attract?

 

[LittleRedTrain]

One of the regularly stated aims of the Darjeeling Tank Locomotive Trust (which took on Adrian Shooter's DHR loco), is to engage those of Indian heritage with railway heritage and preservation.

They have even talked about hiring out the loco and coaches for Indian weddings and visiting some of the big festivals!
The loco is currently in bits awaiting a new boiler, so they'd welcome any support towards getting it back up and running.

 

[MisterSheeps]

some heritage railways aren't far from major cities

yes, i agree with you about the East Lancs, and the Worth Valley lines, maybe Severn Valley, Avon Valley, and Epping - Ongar. I think it would depend on the special event ... Santa is quasi Christian. How about a cat themed event, given the East Asian fascination with cats on stations? It would be interesting to know how much of an appeal lines such as the Tanfield, Bowes, and Middleton have.

 

[renegademaster]

Before accusing railways of being exclusive, you have to remember what the demographics of the UK back in the time when the preserved trains where in use, the demographic with that nostalgia is very different from the average brit and doesn't mean that the people running them are racist. In 50 years time when 20 years old are retired the demographics will be very different

 

[paul1609]

I can't disagree with your informative post, but some heritage railways aren't far from major cities. East Lancs Railway is connected by Manchester Metrolink then a short walk or one stop urban bus.

Given many UK households may lack any or large backyards in which children could play if parents could get them off their phones, surely a few must have a desire to visit for special events such as Santa trains even if as you imply cream teas don't attract.

Youre right but you also have to take in to account that in Europe people dont routinely travel the distances that are common in Australia. I remember being blown out when driving from Melbourne to Adelaide on seeing a sign by the dual carriageway that an hour out of Melbourne it was still over 600km. By comparison my heritage railway is only 100 km from trafalgar square and many of the inhabitants of East london will never have been to Tenterden or experienced the rural lifestyle that I and my townmates live. Its one of the reasons the K&ESR have a sponsored enducational link with the London Borough of Tower Hamlets than enabled us to take the terrier named poplar to the DLR depot for school visits and them subsequently on coach trips to visit the railway.

 

[railfan99]

How about a cat themed event, given the East Asian fascination with cats on stations? It would be interesting to know how much of an appeal lines such as the Tanfield, Bowes, and Middleton have.

An excellent idea. The Japanese in particular are famous for admiring Japanese stationmasters' cats.

Perhaps a volunteer with a preserved railway can submit this to Directors or (if a larger heritage railway has one) a Marketing Manager.

 

[renegademaster]

The problem with using foreign rolling stock on most British heritage railways is that they simply won't fit. Their's an ex Chinese loco at NRM in York and its huge. The only line that will fit them is Nene Valley railway and they are in a precarious financial position

 

[30907]

Before accusing railways of being exclusive, you have to remember what the demographics of the UK back in the time when the preserved trains where in use, the demographic with that nostalgia is very different from the average brit and doesn't mean that the people running them are racist. In 50 years time when 20 years old are retired the demographics will be very different

I am not sure who you are replying to, but I can't find those accusations upthread.

The question was AIUI about the clientele - and in that respect there is no doubt more to be done to attract underrepresented groups (also to working membership), as your point about nostalgia is fair.

 

[Flying Phil]

There are many interesting points being made and I think we will be seeing a greater mix of patrons on many of our heritage lines over the next few years. We used to live near Bradgate Park just outside Leicester and 30 years ago it was rare to see minority groups out for a walk..."it wasn't the done thing"... now it is totally different.
I hope that all our railways keep trying to appeal to as broad a range of patrons - and potential volunteers, as possible.
(I am pleased and proud to say that our Windcutter team is now probably the strongest and most diverse in over 30 years of operation.)

 

[peteb]

I've not been on a preserved railway recently which hasn't had a diverse clientele. This includes railways in Wales, England and Germany. I think a love of trains is a world-wide and more importantly a uniting phenomenon - thankfully! Just look at the YouTube train videos from around the world.........

 

[Llanigraham]

I've not been on a preserved railway recently which hasn't had a diverse clientele. This includes railways in Wales, England and Germany. I think a love of trains is a world-wide and more importantly a uniting phenomenon - thankfully! Just look at the YouTube train videos from around the world.........

Agreed.
I was at Devils Bridge the other day and those that came off the train were multi-cultural, shown not just by skin colour but by clothing.

 

[railfan99]

Agreed.
I was at Devils Bridge the other day and those that came off the train were multi-cultural, shown not just by skin colour but by clothing.

That's great, but to make it clear, I had in mind English largely volunteer-run heritage/preserved railways such as NYMR, SVR, WSR and so on.

Apart from KWVR I haven't seen Asians/Africans or other foreigners on these railways, and I've travelled on many. (Of course, if foreigners were Caucasian, I wouldn't know unless I heard them speak).

 

[bleeder4]

Is it not just a cultural thing though? Spending your childhood waving at steam trains and pretending you're in The Railway Children is something that I don't think is done in other cultures. We are a multi-cultural society but certain pastimes resonate more with certain cultures than others. I've no doubt there are plenty of activities in which the majority of the participants are black, just like there are plenty where the majority are white.

 

[12C]

Apart from KWVR I haven't seen Asians/Africans or other foreigners on these railways, and I've travelled on many. (Of course, if foreigners were Caucasian, I wouldn't know unless I heard them speak).

Just because someone is of African or Asian heritage in the UK, they are not necessarily a ‘foreigner’. Many are now second or third generation UK born and as British as me (my great grandfather was Polish).

Having young children I visit a lot of kids events at preserved railways (Santa/Thomas/Peppa etc) and across all railways these seem to attract a much more diverse range of families more representative of the area they are in. Enthusiast events less so, which is a shame as there definitely is interest from other cultures. I follow a few Instagram/Youtube accounts who are enthusiasts from India and Pakistan, and clearly have a passion for railways.

 

[Lucy1501]

Are they UK residents or people on holidays from say mainland China?

I spotted this poster in their guards compartment last year