Preston/Lancaster pricing shenanigans

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by ChrisD4, 3 Jan 2017.

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  1. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I think there is an argument to say that is valid, but would you like to be a test case? If you are looking to be a test case, I'd first try it with the day ranger fare I mentioned earlier.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    That's your interpretation of the rules, it is not an actual rule.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    If you do not leave the station, that is not a break of journey.
     
  2. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    I know, as I said the phrase was All Line Rover's not mine.
     
  3. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I would say not, particularly as the T&C require you to sit in the specified seat (unenforced though that is) and you can't sit in two seats.


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    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---

    This is no longer specified in the Conditions of Travel...


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  4. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Bear in mind that to be a valid test case both tickets have to be presented for inspection at Preston or on the train. Hiding the Advance and only presenting the flexible ticket (or vv) wouldn't prove anything.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Counted place Advance tickets.
     
    Last edited: 10 Jan 2017
  5. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    This has cropped up before and I wish these discussions didn't become so bizarre.

    The only sensible interpretation is that it is valid. Train companies are often telling people there is no requirement to remain seated in the booked seat. If you were really worried about the requirement you could go to the toilet between Wigan and Preston, thus avoiding any requirement to sit in any seat in the passenger saloon. :roll:
    But the concept of break of journey still exists. Yes, it's no longer properly defined, but you cannot argue that results in any loss of rights, surely?
     
  6. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    If someone holds a London to Lancaster Advance and a Preston to Glasgow Advance then, based on the earlier statements in this thread, either they have 'ceased using' the first ticket at an intermediate station (Preston) or they have only 'started using' the second ticket at Lancaster. It has also been stated that neither is allowed.

    However, if we accept the above suggestion that by holding overlapping tickets and "using both tickets at the same time" the passenger is not breaking any rules this must surely apply in all cases. So a passenger using a Wigan to Preston Advance at the same time as a London to Lancaster Advance must be free to use the former to exit the train and station at Preston legally.
     
  7. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Can we drop this please? This has been done to death and is boring unless someone is willing to be a test case.

    yorkie's post way up the thread (Post 9) suggested an excellent (read "perfectly legal without any doubt") workaround for a very reasonable price. All this argument about buying the Wigan - Preston ticket is not going to get anywhere or change any of the conclusions (or lack of) reached in previous threads.
     
  8. All Line Rover

    All Line Rover Established Member

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    Only the rail industry would say "you can't do X, but we're not going to tell you what X is" - and that's after formerly giving an explanation of what X is! :|
     
  9. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    Some people, me included, clearly find it interesting. Any one who finds it boring is under no obligation to read the thread.
     
  10. jkdd77

    jkdd77 Member

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    Without commenting on the main issue (most members of the forum will know legitimate ways to circumvent the restrictions in any case), I think part of the problem arises because VTWC is one of a few long-distance operators that have only two types of flexible return- Anytime and Off-Peak, whereas most have three; Anytime, Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak.

    If VTWC transferred fare regulation to the '2C'/'9I' tickets, at the existing price but relabelled as 'Super Off-Peak, extended throughout the network to cover Lancaster, Wales, etc, and introduced a BoJ-unrestricted '3A'/'5F' ticket at a substantially higher price (as with VTEC's Off-Peak), this would remove this flashpoint, and reduce the embarrassing inefficiency of empty trains at 18:45 and rammed-full trains at 19:00. This is in addition to avoiding the controversy/ adverse PR from "fining" (that, is in the eyes of the media, although not the eyes of the law) Preston passengers who seek to circumvent the BoJ restriction on the Lancaster ticket, and from illegitimately harassing passengers legitimately using BoJ on the return portion.

    Of course, there would be winners and losers from this approach, and, as always, the losers, including those genuinely travelling from Lancaster to London without needing to break their outward journey, would shout the loudest.
     
    Last edited: 10 Jan 2017
  11. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    I don't agree with that conclusion. I agree that when the train arrives at Preston they are at the end of the Wigan to Preston journey and that ticket ceases to be valid.

    However the Euston-Lancaster ticket is still valid and they still need to complete that journey.
     
  12. Mag_seven

    Mag_seven Established Member

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    I actually raised the issue of attempting to alight at Preston with a Wigan - Preston ticket when traveling on a Euston Lancaster advance in post 23 and subsequently suggested the best way to resolve the issue would be for it to be tested in court in post 30.

    Until Virgin actually bring an actual case to court where they claim that a person has alighted at Preston under the circumstances outlined its difficult to tell. Doesn't mean we can't speculate though. :)
     
  13. Wilts Wanderer

    Wilts Wanderer Member

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    Having read this thread with interest I suggest this whole issue strengthens the case for seatbelts on trains. Prior to departure from Euston the train manager padlocks them shut and you only get released from your seat on the approach to your ticketed destination / interchange station :p

    In seriousness, with the Euston-Lancaster *advance* single what would stop you from alighting at Wigan and boarding a following service that calls at both Preston and Lancaster? If you were also carrying a Wigan-Preston ticket you would be both permitted and not permitted to leave the train at Preston!
     
    Last edited: 10 Jan 2017
  14. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    If it was an Off Peak single then you would be free to break your journey at Preston.
     
  15. Wilts Wanderer

    Wilts Wanderer Member

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    Apologies, meant to say Advanced. (Previous post edited.)
     
  16. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    In that case the T&Cs say you can only change trains as per your itinerary.
     
  17. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Established Member

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    If the advance single specifies travel on a particular train, then it would not be valid on the following train, so the only thing you are permitted to do is leave the train at Preston.

    Although it does cause an intriguing technicality: If you didn't leave the station at Wigan, then you didn't break your journey, but you also can no longer use your advance single ticket.

    Clearly, as with the original suggestion of staying on the train but using a Wigan-Preston single, you are breaking the spirit of, and the intention, of the regulations. Whether there's a case for saying you haven't broken the letter of them is something only a court could decide. And I'm not sure a test case would even be worth attempting because if something went to court and was ruled in favour of the passenger, all that would happen is the rules would be re-worded to more precisely match the clear intention of them.
     
  18. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I do not have that luxury as I have a job to do on the forum.

    Please read existing threads if you want to rehash old arguments.

    Clearly nothing new is being added in this thread. Locked.
     
  19. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    You may use two or more tickets for one journey.

    The passenger has not made a Wigan to Preston journey.

    The passenger has not made two journeys.

    The passenger has made one journey, which is London to Preston.

    None of that is in dispute by anyone else (I hope!), but we are not all in agreement as to which combinations of fares would be valid for that journey. We never have all members of this forum in complete agreement on that particular issue. But can we stick to that argument, instead of arguing over the strange concept of an additional journey that has been completed that was never even commenced.
     
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