Preston Trams Discussion

[py_megapixel]

I don't think an underfloor engine fire can be compared with this

The image you've inserted doesn't appear to be working.

 

[randyrippley]

The image you've inserted doesn't appear to be working.

Working OK for me, and in your reply

Same image as in #51, and copied from there

 

[chorleyjeff]

My UK home is north of Junction 32 so either way will not affect me. I do remember in the 1980s the weedkiller train going across Skeffington Road and taking photos. I also worked at Courtaulds in the 1970s so I have active interest in the possible project.

I remember the late 1950s when a daily long goods train with a Mould Junction WD 2-8-0 always slipping at walking pace past Skeffy Road crossing about 8.40am. Plus coal trains to Deepdale coal yard. One lunchtime even Royal Scot at Skeffy Road ( must have been a fill in turn ).
Ah the smell of Courtaulds in the late 1950s when there was an East wind. No wonder they had to go to South Asia for people to work there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Working OK for me, and in your reply

Same image as in #51, and copied from there

I can see it too. But for those who can't, it's a tram properly on fire, not a minor underframe fire on a DMU that would not have harmed those sat above it.

DMUs occasionally catch (minor) fire, it's the nature of the beast, really. EMUs and electric trams don't really have much of an excuse.

 

[bluegoblin7]

The RAIB report of the above mentioned fire is extremely damning; having heard a personal account of the incident from the driver it’s lucky there wasn’t a fatality.

The Trampower death trap and the 230s are completely different kettles of fish and are very much incomparable.

 

[edwin_m]

To be fair, that was then and this is now. It could have been re-wired to suitable standards in the meantime.

Having said that, as it appears to have no wheels, wiring may be optional.

 

[randyrippley]

To be fair, that was then and this is now. It could have been re-wired to suitable standards in the meantime.

Having said that, as it appears to have no wheels, wiring may be optional.

The state of the wiring is trivial compared to the flammability of the vehicle. That photo looks as if a full tank of diesel is on fire, bit of a shock considering its an electric vehicle

 

[Bletchleyite]

The state of the wiring is trivial compared to the flammability of the vehicle. That photo looks as if a full tank of diesel is on fire, bit of a shock considering its an electric vehicle

Well, quite. In a DMU you can't avoid having a load of highly flammable liquid strapped underneath and piped around the place, that's the nature of the beast, which is why DMUs sometimes catch fire, and is why they are designed so that said fire doesn't get into the passenger compartment if there is one.

There is no excuse for EMUs or trams catching fire (other than wooden heritage vehicles, which this isn't), as there should be nothing to burn there[1]. Clearly the tram was made of cheap, inadequately fire-retardant materials.

[1] Other than I think transformer oil? But a 750VDC tram doesn't have a transformer.

 

[DJ_K666]

That would be an Ecumenical matter.

"Yes"

 

[Clip]

I don't think an underfloor engine fire can be compared with this

So what you're saying is is that something that occured 13 years ago is the same thing that will happen now. With no lessons learned and no improvements to their design and build?
That's quite an ignorant view

Well, quite. In a DMU you can't avoid having a load of highly flammable liquid strapped underneath and piped around the place, that's the nature of the beast, which is why DMUs sometimes catch fire, and is why they are designed so that said fire doesn't get into the passenger compartment if there is one.

There is no excuse for EMUs or trams catching fire (other than wooden heritage vehicles, which this isn't), as there should be nothing to burn there[1]. Clearly the tram was made of cheap, inadequately fire-retardant materials.

[1] Other than I think transformer oil? But a 750VDC tram doesn't have a transformer.

I'm not sure where you get this idea that emus have no excuse for catching fire. Electrical fires are far to common in the workplace and in the home and is generally down to a fault with manufacture or misuse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure where you get this idea that emus have no excuse for catching fire. Electrical fires are far to common in the workplace and in the home and is generally down to a fault with manufacture or misuse.

Houses, unlike modern EMUs, are full of (and often cladded with) stuff that burns with almost no effort going into preventing it from doing so. The main fire safety approach in a house is (to quote the old slogan) "get out, get the Fire Brigade out and stay out" - that is, detection (and mitigation, in Wales, where new houses must have sprinkler systems) takes priority over prevention, other than with regard to soft furnishings where things have been improved over the years.

Home electrical systems are also basically a free-for-all with no inspection regime in place other than for landlords. Yes, there's Part P, but who's going to know until you sell (at which point the only possibility really is a buyer using non-compliance to get a few grand off; they aren't going to report you because they want to buy your house - if you got wind of them shopping you in you're hardly going to sell it to them)? Also Part P is now applicable to only major works.

(Grenfell Tower illustrated the problem that occurs when that isn't an option due to being a high-rise building)

 

[randyrippley]

So what you're saying is is that something that occured 13 years ago is the same thing that will happen now. With no lessons learned and no improvements to their design and build?
That's quite an ignorant view

Given that they are a tin-pot business living on minimal funding and seemingly intending to use the same vehicle, it rather seems a logical view. Bunch of walter mittys with no concept of reality

If they were going to use an existing commercial tramcar design I could believe they might have a valid idea, but trying to run a public transport service using a vehicle knocked up as a one-off in a shed by a group with no practical experience of construction or operations sounds a design for disaster

 

[Clip]

To be fair, that was then and this is now. It could have been re-wired to suitable standards in the meantime.

Having said that, as it appears to have no wheels, wiring may be optional.

I'd say not having wheels is its biggest issue now

Houses, unlike modern EMUs, are full of (and often cladded with) stuff that burns with almost no effort going into preventing it from doing so. The main fire safety approach in a house is (to quote the old slogan) "get out, get the Fire Brigade out and stay out" - that is, detection (and mitigation, in Wales, where new houses must have sprinkler systems) takes priority over prevention, other than with regard to soft furnishings where things have been improved over the years.

Home electrical systems are also basically a free-for-all with no inspection regime in place other than for landlords. Yes, there's Part P, but who's going to know until you sell (at which point the only possibility really is a buyer using non-compliance to get a few grand off; they aren't going to report you because they want to buy your house - if you got wind of them shopping you in you're hardly going to sell it to them)? Also Part P is now applicable to only major works.

(Grenfell Tower illustrated the problem that occurs when that isn't an option due to being a high-rise building)

So what you meant to say and did at one point, is that it was it's build quality and lack of fire retardant materials.

But your claim of emus not going up is a false one especially as one went poof on the southern not so long ago eh?

 

[Bertie the bus]

Fire or no fire it's worth noting that after a fire on a class 230 that hasn't stopped them being used or more ordered?

And fire or no fire it is worth noting the Preston tram system is a total fantasy. Not going to happen - ever.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So what you meant to say and did at one point, is that it was it's build quality and lack of fire retardant materials.

Yes.

But your claim of emus not going up is a false one especially as one went poof on the southern not so long ago eh?

There was an EMU fire, yes, I recall it being posted on here, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't gutted in that manner, it was contained.

The point was that a properly built and maintained EMU or modern tram will not go up in smoke like that even if there is a small underframe fire.

 

[Clip]

Given that they are a tin-pot business living on minimal funding and seemingly intending to use the same vehicle, it rather seems a logical view. Bunch of walter mittys with no concept of reality

If they were going to use an existing commercial tramcar design I could believe they might have a valid idea, but trying to run a public transport service using a vehicle knocked up as a one-off in a shed by a group with no practical experience of construction or operations sounds a design for disaste

Given that they are a tin-pot business living on minimal funding and seemingly intending to use the same vehicle, it rather seems a logical view. Bunch of walter mittys with no concept of reality

If they were going to use an existing commercial tramcar design I could believe they might have a valid idea, but trying to run a public transport service using a vehicle knocked up as a one-off in a shed by a group with no practical experience of construction or operations sounds a design for disaster

Parry people mover was exactly the same. Seems successful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Parry people mover was exactly the same. Seems successful.

If you count 2 of them in service (one at a time) worldwide as successful, yes They do seem to be reasonably reliable, though, probably more reliable than the 230s. The flywheel idea has probably been superceded by improved battery tech, though.

 

[randyrippley]

Parry people mover was exactly the same. Seems successful.

on a dedicated track where its not in danger from other street vehicles
Would you trust PPM to run safely down Fishergate?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would you trust PPM to run safely down Fishergate?

If it was set up as a tram, with protection around the wheelsets and enhanced braking, I can see absolutely no reason why I wouldn't. It wouldn't have been allowed near even the Stourbridge Shuttle if it wasn't safe.

However I'd question whether there was any point in replacing diesel buses with diesel trams.

 

[bluegoblin7]

So what you're saying is is that something that occured 13 years ago is the same thing that will happen now. With no lessons learned and no improvements to their design and build?
That's quite an ignorant view

It’s the same tram with one (1) new end. Even if there’s been a total rewire, it has already been pointed out that that shouldn’t have caused a fire of that scale; the issue is the inflammable materials used in its construction.

Given you seem so certain of success and are negating the significant issues could you perhaps enlighten us with your relevant tramway/light rail experience/qualifications?

 

[6Gman]

Pilot scheme for Preston's £19m tram line set for green light

When fully launched, Preston's tram line hopes to see 12 stops created across the city including at Deepdale Retail Park, the University of Central Lancashire, Preston city centre, and Deepdale Stadium

www.lancs.live

It begins.

So all that's happened is planning permission for a test track?

Bit like getting planning permission for a children's playground and claiming "the full scheme will create a new Alton Towers" !

 

[edwin_m]

If you count 2 of them in service (one at a time) worldwide as successful, yes They do seem to be reasonably reliable, though, probably more reliable than the 230s. The flywheel idea has probably been superceded by improved battery tech, though.

A lot of railways would be highly reliable if they always had a standby vehicle within five minutes travel. Compared to the previous 153 this actually made sense - I believe the PPM cost not much more than one year's lease of the 153 so even buying two had a good rate of return. However the short and slow Stourbridge branch is very much one of a kind on the UK rail network today, the last of what were once many "Junction to Town" shuttles. Most of the more minor railways need a larger and faster vehicle, and without knowing anything about its likely reliability I'd say the spec of the University of Warwick's railcar proposal fits the bill much better.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A lot of railways would be highly reliable if they always had a standby vehicle within five minutes travel.

While that's a good point, tell it to users of the Marston Vale last Summer, where they were having great difficulty getting one out of three working. We all thought that a spare at Bletchley would do exactly what you suggest...how wrong we were

 

[WatcherZero]

It’s the same tram with one (1) new end. Even if there’s been a total rewire, it has already been pointed out that that shouldn’t have caused a fire of that scale; the issue is the inflammable materials used in its construction.

Given you seem so certain of success and are negating the significant issues could you perhaps enlighten us with your relevant tramway/light rail experience/qualifications?

I seem to remember that like most Blackpool trams it was a timber framed vehicle with an aluminium skin. The more damning thing though (besides Blackpool Transport not doing a safety inspection of a vehicle they allowed to operate on their network) was that a battery short caused the rapidly spreading fire and the battery box was made of wood!