Preston - York

[WestCoastTravel]

Good Afternoon All.

On Saturday (13th) I travelled with 2 friends from Preston - York, out via Burnley and back via Manchester using the off peak return ex Saver Return for £31.60. I am aware there is an exclusive northern ticket marked "route burnley only" for about £22, but we were coming back for a concert in Manchester in the evening so had to get the Saver (allowing travel both routes).

My question is at York on the return leg, I noticed that the Blackpool North train was cancelled. In this case could you:

a) use the ticket marked "route burnley only" on Manchester service to get back to Preston, as there would not be another service for another hour or
b) would the guard just excess the ticket or
c) alterantively charge a full open single between York and Preston?

As an aside we were little bit late arriving at Preston and the Northern guard had no problem in selling us all off peak returns. I know previously that some First Transpennie guards want to sell Anytime returns as a penalty for not getting the ticket at the station. Do Northern and First Transpennie have different policies for buying tickets on trains?

kind Regards,

WestCoastTravel.

 

[scrapy]

Northern and TPE both follow NR conditions of carriage which state if you board a train without a ticket (where ticket purchasing facilities are available) you may be charged full standard fare for your journey.

A few years ago TPE had a publicity campaign and it is standard policy to enforce this now.

Northern allow conductors the discrestion so it is enforced by some guards but not by others. Many Northern conductors will issue off peak tickets but wont give railcard discounts.

One of the main reasons for the difference is the types of journey each operator has. TPE guards often have 20 min + between stations, so have to time to explain to passengers. /they also have a much higher proportion of staffed stations so can spend the time doing this as most passengers will already have tickets. If there are any problems it is a lot easier to get BTP to attend at main stations such as Preston, Manchester Picc or Leeds, than at places like Oldham Mumps, Accrington or Burnley.

Most Northern services (the Blackpool N to York is an exception) have only 3 minutes between stations and depending on the unit type the conductor can often only operate the doors from the rear, giving about 1 1/2 minutes to actually sell tickets. On most Northern routes there are several unstaffed stations so a lot of tickets need to be sold and even the stations with ticket offices many wont have bought them. For that reason many Northern guards will not want to get into a lengthy discussion, and sell the cheapest ticket. There are a few exceptions to this so you can still be charged standard on Northern.

So there is no official difference between the policies of the two companys it is just harder logistically for Northern conductors to enforce, so many dont.

As for if the York to Preston ticket if the train via Burnley was cancelled I would accept it but strictly speaking you should wait for the next train or excess your ticket at the ticket office. Best bet is to ask the guard before you travel, as in times of service disruption tickets are often valid on other operators services, for example, if the wcml goes tits up virgin tickets are accepted on EMT to Sheffield then EMT, TPE or Northern to Manchester/Liverpool.

 

[glynn80]

In this case I would think the sensible thing would be to speak to the guard before you board to ask him to issue you an excess.

You wouldn't just be allowed to take that route just because your train is cancelled (unless it is the last one of the day or there isn't another for more than two hours), you would of chosen the less flexible & cheaper ticket and you therefore would have decided that you were happy to take the risk/inconvenience of only being able to use that line.

 

[Max]

Northern guards tend to be very lenient round here and, on the most part will sell the cheapest ticket with the railcard discount!

 

[janb]

Interesting, on our route I would say that with Northern guards you are at least guaranteed a ticket check. TPE its a bit more variable, as are their guards, some are great whereas one just wanders down the train asking if anyone wants to buy a ticket.

I heard that one reason that TPE retained 8A SVRs alongside SORs was to have a form of 'penalty fare' as it were, those buying at a booking office get a SVR, those on the train a SOR. So thats probably why you wouldn't get it from a TPE guard, whereas Northern don't do SVRs anymore so guard probably doesn't care about such subtleties.

I did witness a TPE guard selling Northern Duos on the train once, if it had been my open booking office they had walked past, I would not have been best pleased.

 

[yorkie]

Good Afternoon All.

On Saturday (13th) I travelled with 2 friends from Preston - York, out via Burnley and back via Manchester using the off peak return ex Saver Return for £31.60. I am aware there is an exclusive northern ticket marked "route burnley only" for about £22, but we were coming back for a concert in Manchester in the evening so had to get the Saver (allowing travel both routes).

You should be offered the cheaper fare and a route excess (half the difference), total would be approx £27.

My question is at York on the return leg, I noticed that the Blackpool North train was cancelled. In this case could you:

a) use the ticket marked "route burnley only" on Manchester service to get back to Preston, as there would not be another service for another hour or

I'm not sure about this, but you are certainly allowed on the Manchester service as far as Leeds (if not Huddersfield), so my advice would be to board the Manchester service and ask on board. If they say no, you can get off at Leeds and ask for advice. If you arrived early enough, you may be able to get an earlier train to Leeds and pick up your Blackpool train from there (it is unlikely it was cancelled throughout; it probably started at Leeds).

b) would the guard just excess the ticket or
c) alterantively charge a full open single between York and Preston?

The excess is half the difference, so approx £5.

As an aside we were little bit late arriving at Preston and the Northern guard had no problem in selling us all off peak returns.

NT guards are good like that!

I know previously that some First Transpennie guards want to sell Anytime returns as a penalty for not getting the ticket at the station. Do Northern and First Transpennie have different policies for buying tickets on trains?

kind Regards,

WestCoastTravel.

Officially it's the same policy, but NT appear to give their guards discretion.

TPE are far more militant and I get the impression that they may spy on their guards to check that they are charging Anytime fares, possibly by doing 'mystery shopping' or more likely by downloading the Avantix sales data and checking it.

 

[John @ home]

You should be offered the cheaper fare and a route excess (half the difference), total would be approx £27.

I think "Fares Simplification" has made this more expensive than it used to be.

There are three return fares between Preston and York route Burnley:
£25.10 SOR
£23.20 SDR
£22.20 CDR B1

And two return fares route any permitted:
£38.50 SOR
£31.60 SVR 8A

Another thread has discussed excess fares and seemed to come to the conclusion that one can only excess between tickets of the same type. If that is true, then one gets stung by the fact that Northern have re-named their Saver Returns as Anytime (SOR) and TPE have called theirs Off-Peak (SVR).

So, to excess a £22.20 CDR to return via Manchester, I think one needs to:
(1) excess it from CDR to SOR in order to find a common fare type, which costs the whole difference of £2.90.
then
(2) excess a route Burnley SOR to an any permitted SOR, which costs half the difference of £13.40, ie. £6.70.

So the total cost is now 22.20 + 2.90 + 6.70 = £29.80

John

 

[yorkie]

...Another thread has discussed excess fares and seemed to come to the conclusion that one can only excess between tickets of the same type. ...

I am pretty sure the machines will let you excess to a completely different type, but of course that doesn't answer the question of whether they should. But someone told me that they have read the ticket examiners handbook and it gives an example where someone has a 'Not London' Anytime ticket, and wishes to go via London off peak, and although the Anytime fare via London is extortionate, the Off Peak fare isn't much more so they are upgraded (or downgraded depending on how you look at it!) to an Off Peak via London.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

On-board excess fares for change of route are to the cheapest available single or return (ie not advance fares) where there was opportunity to buy before you board (according to the FRPP). So an Anytime fare could be excess-ed to an Off-Peak fare, if one is valid.

 

[ronc]

Interesting, on our route I would say that with Northern guards you are at least guaranteed a ticket check. TPE its a bit more variable, as are their guards, some are great whereas one just wanders down the train asking if anyone wants to buy a ticket.

On my last two journeys Preston to London on Virgin I never had my ticket checked on the outward leg and I was booked first class .

 

[mbonwick]

Yes, TPE are a bit variable. A friend and I were on our way to Manchester (can't for the life of me remember why!)
Anyway, we boarded a 185 at Lancaster. The guard came through just after Preston, asking only to check the tickets of people who'd boarded at Preston!
We got talking to a lad sat across from us, who said that the last time there'd been a ticket check was for people boarding at Oxenholme!

 

[janb]

On my last two journeys Preston to London on Virgin I never had my ticket checked on the outward leg and I was booked first class .

Yep, I've done Lancaster-London First Class without a ticket check.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, TPE are a bit variable. A friend and I were on our way to Manchester (can't for the life of me remember why!)
Anyway, we boarded a 185 at Lancaster. The guard came through just after Preston, asking only to check the tickets of people who'd boarded at Preston!
We got talking to a lad sat across from us, who said that the last time there'd been a ticket check was for people boarding at Oxenholme!

They quite often change guards at Preston, perhaps why he only asked from Preston.