Prince Rupert

[Arglwydd Golau]

As an avid fan of King Crimson, I have been reading the updated biography of the band and following up some tales on the DGM website. In 1970, for the recording of their third album 'Lizard', Jon Anderson of Yes was drafted in to record vocals on one track (Prince Rupert Awakes). In an online article he recounts the following:

'I had no idea what I was going to sing until I turned up at Wessex, and then couldn’t help but smile when I saw the title. “Prince Rupert was the name of a train that would go past our school every Wednesday and I thought it’s so bizarre that he wrote this song which I sang and it had that kind of connection'

As Jon Anderson was born (1944) and brought up in Accrington can anyone shed any light on what this train was?

 

[Helvellyn]

Sounds like it could be LMS designed 4-6-0 Jubilee Class 45671 Prince Rupert, named after Prince Rupert of the Rhine, Duke of Cumberland and nephew of King Charles I who was one of the Cavalier military leaders during the Civil War.

Picture of it at Carstairs.

 

[70014IronDuke]

As Helvellyn says, it was surely this Jubilee.

According to this site

No. 45671 - Prince Rupert

www.jubilees.co.uk

the loco would have been a Newton Heath engine for much of the 1950s, so it was certainly 'on the doorstep' for Anderson's school.

The only quibble I had was that I'm surprised 5Xs were used through Accrington - wouldn't have thought the loads justified them on the Blackburn line (but I'm not claiming any expertise on the area). Interesting little detail about "every Wednesday". I wonder, perhaps it was a troop train working, since National Service would have been ongoing in those days.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Odd...I never considered it might be a Jubilee, (I think I imagined it was the nickname for a 'train' rather than a loco or engine). I can't recall ever hearing this Jubilee ame or else I wouldn't have posed the question. Yes, I'm sure that you are correct @Helvellyn and @70014IronDuke.
The Wednesday detail is interesting, I suppose it must have been some kind of special working, of course there are all kinds of other variables, it could have been that Wednesday was the only day that he actually saw it! He wouldn't have been the only schoolboy to take notice of passing trains during a games lesson!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Sounds like it could be LMS designed 4-6-0 Jubilee Class 45671 Prince Rupert, named after Prince Rupert of the Rhine, Duke of Cumberland and nephew of King Charles I who was one of the Cavalier military leaders during the Civil War.
Picture of it at Carstairs.

Prince Rupert was also governor of the Hudson's Bay Company which developed much of arctic/western Canada in the 17th century (a region called Rupert's Land when it fell into British state hands).
Many of the Jubilee names have "Empire" and Canadian connections, and this is one.
Prince Rupert is also the name of the town at the end of the line where Canadian National reaches the Pacific coast in northern BC.
Rupert himself, though born in Prague, was one of the key links between the Stuart and Hanoverian royal dynasties - his nephew became King George I.
There's often a lot of history behind a locomotive name...

 

[70014IronDuke]

Odd...I never considered it might be a Jubilee, (I think I imagined it was the nickname for a 'train' rather than a loco or engine). I can't recall ever hearing this Jubilee ame or else I wouldn't have posed the question. Yes, I'm sure that you are correct @Helvellyn and @70014IronDuke.
....

My immediate reaction was that it was this loco, but I thought it was a Scottish-based engine. I'm pretty sure I never saw it - I have my 1964 combined volume in front of me now, and it stands there like a missing tooth, spoiling a run of about 20 locomotives! But, assuming that site is correct, it was largely used on former L&Y metal, plus, I presume, runs to Preston/Blackpool, Carlisle and Glasgow.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Prince Rupert was also governor of the Hudson's Bay Company which developed much of arctic/western Canada in the 17th century (a region called Rupert's Land when it fell into British state hands).
Many of the Jubilee names have "Empire" and Canadian connections, and this is one. ...

I'm sure you are correct, except I think this one is 'by accident'. Empire connections stop* at 45638 Zanzibar, and switch to admirals, battles and battleships. 45671 is firmly in the admirals' group.

Furthermore, the Canadian names take pride of place in the class, after the doyen, 45552 Silver Jubilee, starting with Canada itself at 45553**. (That must have narked the Aussies, one suspects!).

* - There is the anomaly of the last four locos - named after provinces of Ireland.
** - This happens to be the only locomotive that took water from troughs when I was on the train - at Nuneaton.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

I've just reacquainted myself with the names of the class, somehow I have always assumed that they were named after countries in the Empire with a few oddities thrown in, I can see now that my assumption was quite wide of the mark! Having only seen a handful of Jubilees in active service back in the 1960's, perhaps I can be forgiven for that error.
Also have read the Wiki entry on Prince Rupert, my only recollection of him from 'A' level History was as a dashing military commander on the Royalist side in the Civil War, he clearly made the cut for his name to appear on 45671 on his prowess as a naval Commander.

 

[Bevan Price]

Without knowing the time and location, it is difficult to be certain. But in the 1950s, there were Colne portions to London Euston, which joined/left the main part of the train at Stockport. Also, there were through trains between Manchester Victoria, Colne & Skipton which mostly ran via Clifton Jn, Bury & Accrington. Whilst motive power might be expected to be a Black 5 or 2-6-4 tank, it was not unusual (almost everywhere) for larger locos to have "fill-in" turns on stopping services between duties on express services.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

Mr W Pedia tells me that he did have naval connections, as follows:

"He served under Louis XIV of France against Spain, and then as a Royalist privateer in the Caribbean Sea. Following the Restoration, Rupert returned to England, becoming a senior English naval commander during the Second and Third Anglo-Dutch Wars, and serving as the first governor of the Hudson's Bay Company."

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Without knowing the time and location, it is difficult to be certain. But in the 1950s, there were Colne portions to London Euston, which joined/left the main part of the train at Stockport. Also, there were through trains between Manchester Victoria, Colne & Skipton which mostly ran via Clifton Jn, Bury & Accrington. Whilst motive power might be expected to be a Black 5 or 2-6-4 tank, it was not unusual (almost everywhere) for larger locos to have "fill-in" turns on stopping services between duties on express services.

Delved a little further and found that he went to St John's School, leaving in 1959. There is currently a St John's School close to the railway line between Accrington and Huncoat.

 

[30907]

Delved a little further and found that he went to St John's School, leaving in 1959. There is currently a St John's School close to the railway line between Accrington and Huncoat.

As it's right next to St John's church ("The Pals' Church"), you can be sure it was there in 1959.

 

[Taunton]

Jon Anderson seems to be right in the age group who were trainspotting in its peak of the mid-1950s, so I wouldn't be surprised to learn he had a Combined Volume of his own then. And a number of observers were only interested in named locos, some of which they have recalled for much of their lives.

Michael Palin, in his well-known Great Railway Journeys TV programme to Scotland made some years ago, recollected wistfully a couple of names from his spotting days at Sheffield station. One of these was Lady Godiva. Now 45519 was a longstanding Bristol Barrow Road loco, notably familiar to those of us at the east end of Bristol TM, but I was surprised that it got as far as Sheffield, regularly enough to be recollected. I always thought Birmingham was normal, and Derby the maximum extent from Bristol. But there it was, stated in his programme, and he was there.