Priv, ALR and first class upgrades

[swadbus]

Hello folks, first post (been lurking and reading for months!) and wanted some advice,

Myself and my partner are doing an all line rover this week. Tomorrow, we intend on using the Welsh assembly service from Cardiff to Holyhead operated by Arriva Trains Wales.

Our priv passes and All Line Rover tickets are standard class. Has anybody any idea how much it would be to pay to upgrade to first class one-way? Just to really confuse matters, one of us has a young persons railcard if it is of any use.

Cheers,

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Cardiff-Holyhead excess to First class would be the difference between the standard (in this case SDS) and First class (FDS) fare (£103.60-£74.10=£29.50) if bought before travel is made.

A 16-25 discount is not available on 'First Anytime' (FDS) tickets.

 

[Track Basher]

That is not entirely correct. You can pay the normal upgrade supplement with a standard ticket. This is between £30 and £50 depending on the journey being made. Because it is the priv ticket the difference is between the priv standard and the full first. The uprade is cheaper.

You can then have the comp meal. It works like weekend first upgrade.

 

[mumrar]

That is not entirely correct. You can pay the normal upgrade supplement with a standard ticket. This is between £30 and £50 depending on the journey being made.

You can then have the comp meal. It works like weekend first upgrade.

There is nothing incorrect about what HHF has posted relating to First Class upgrades. You have posted another method, but that doesn't make hhf's incorrect.

 

[Track Basher]

The problem is the base fare paid. If the original ticket had a discount applied that would be the fare paid. The amount paid has been taken as the full fare not the discounted fare. The difference in fare is much greater by that method as the fare paid would be about £18 not £74 and you woukd pay around £85 not £29.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The ALR is not a single or return ticket, therefore it is either a season, or it is not permitted to excess it. The excess for a season is the difference between the standard single and first single, as stated in the FRPP (The Manual). The PRIV discount fare is only used for single and return excess tickets.

 

[swadbus]

Thanks for the replies folks.

I'm still a little unclear from the replies at how much this is likely to be, as a couple of methods for working the fare out have been given. Would we be better to upgrade on the train, or in advance of travel?

 

[bb21]

Best to shop around beforehand so that you get the 'correct' excess. Unfortunately excess fare is a minefield and not every clerk is skilful at it due to various reasons, so one might do it one way and another a different way. As as been demonstrated, there are various ways of calculating the excess. If you're not charged the 'correct' excess then go somewhere else. Hopefully somewhere down the line they'll get it right.

 

[First class]

I have always been told that a (PRIV) ALR should be classed as an SOS/SDS for purposes of excess fares. The ranger is classed as a "Leisure Pass".

Those staff with a STD PRIV who wish to travel in first class would be charged the difference between the priv SOS to the public FOS.

E.g. in this case: £18.55 PRIV SDS to public £103.60 FDS, which gives an excess of £85.05.

The only thing that "muddies" the waters here is the £50 PREM UPGRADE product, and whether that is available to somebody with a PRIV SDS/SOS.
Only reference really could be:

EXAMPLES OF INSTANCES WHERE IT IS CONSIDERED THAT DISHONESTY IS NOT INVOLVED, AND
PENALTIES RECOMMENDED
Travelling in 1st class accommodation when not entitled
 Active employees:
o To be dealt with under disciplinary procedures (where relevant)
o Withdrawal of travel facilities for not less than 1 year for the whole family
o Difference in fares to be collected where appropriate

 

[hairyhandedfool]

A Priv ALR should be dealt with in the same way as any other ALR.

....Would we be better to upgrade on the train, or in advance of travel?

I can't say for the Premier Upgrade, but an excess fare must be bought before you board a train, unless there are no facilities to do so, otherwise a full first class fare is due.

 

[swadbus]

Thanks again for the further replies.

I nipped into the booking office a short time ago at Truro whilst we had a half an hour layover. The lady in the ticket office who was polite enough stated that you cannot excess an ALR and that I would have to buy the full first class single fare of £103 per ticket, effectively giving absolutely no consideration for our ALR tickets.

I'm not convinced that she is correct, I will ask again at our next stop off which will be Penzance.

 

[First class]

Thanks again for the further replies.

I nipped into the booking office a short time ago at Truro whilst we had a half an hour layover. The lady in the ticket office who was polite enough stated that you cannot excess an ALR and that I would have to buy the full first class single fare of £103 per ticket, effectively giving absolutely no consideration for our ALR tickets.

I'm not convinced that she is correct, I will ask again at our next stop off which will be Penzance.

She is correct that you cannot excess a ranger/rover (per se) but the FRPP tells you to treat it as a SOS/SDS which you CAN excess. As I said earlier the excess is £85.05 each, or (if Arriva Trains Wales/ATOC) allow, you can buy the £50 supplement.

Also

Arriva Trains Wales
Holders of active First Class staff travel facilities are advised that First Class accommodation should only
be used where seats are available. These seats should be vacated whenever required for fare paying
customers. First Class seat reservations for active staff are not permitted.
This information is provided by the Permanent Timetable Manager, Arriva Trains Wales Ltd, St. Mary’s House,

 

[swadbus]

She is correct that you cannot excess a ranger/rover (per se) but the FRPP tells you to treat it as a SOS/SDS which you CAN excess. As I said earlier the excess is £85.05 each, or (if Arriva Trains Wales/ATOC) allow, you can buy the £50 supplement.

I think smiling sweetly at the guard / train manager might be the way forward for this particular query. :roll:

I'll let you know what happens. Thanks again for all the replies.

 

[bb21]

I think smiling sweetly at the guard / train manager might be the way forward for this particular query. :roll:

I'll let you know what happens. Thanks again for all the replies.

I would say that if you can, try at all the station offices you can manage before you board.

If no success by then, might just be an idea to politely ask the guard before boarding, and given that you are Priv, he/she might be VERY VERY nice to you indeed.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....but the FRPP tells you to treat it as a SOS/SDS which you CAN excess....

Any chance you can highlight where it says this as I can't find it atm.

 

[1V53]

You won't be allowed to travel free as even our own staff can't do that. However you can buy the std-first class upgrade to first class on the train, undiscounted. We were told this when the service started.

To quote: Staff not in uniform who hold Standard Travel concessions may pay the supplement to travel in First providing they are not taking a seat from a fare paying passenger. Staff who have paid the supplement will be entitled to the complementary meals. There is no staff reduction of the First Class Supplement.

Retail information ATW 08 057

 

[swadbus]

You won't be allowed to travel free as even our own staff can't do that. However you can buy the std-first class upgrade to first class on the train, undiscounted. We were told this when the service started.

To quote: Staff not in uniform who hold Standard Travel concessions may pay the supplement to travel in First providing they are not taking a seat from a fare paying passenger. Staff who have paid the supplement will be entitled to the complementary meals. There is no staff reduction of the First Class Supplement.

Retail information ATW 08 057

We're not expecting to be travelling for free. Simply to have a valid ticket to travel in first class on this particular train.

We have asked further today, and been told again we will need brand new full price tickets to travel in first class. Apparently the ALR cannot be excessed and the £50 upgrade price is only available at weekends.

 

[323235]

The upgrade supplement is definitely not limited to weekends as the Wag Express doesn't run on weekends. Think you may be best off contacting Arriva Trains Wales and quoting the code at the bottom of 1V53's post if necessary.

 

[swadbus]

The upgrade supplement is definitely not limited to weekends as the Wag Express doesn't run on weekends. Think you may be best off contacting Arriva Trains Wales and quoting the code at the bottom of 1V53's post if necessary.

We managed to get our first class upgrades.

As suggested, we went directly to the train manager/guard(s) and found them to be very helpful. Let's just say that being polite made it a lot easier to get a more favourable fare for our journey.

 

[323235]

good stuff, glad you didn't pay the higher price.

 

[Track Basher]

Just out of interest how much did you eventually pay?

 

[premier01]

A Priv ALR should be dealt with in the same way as any other ALR.



I can't say for the Premier Upgrade, but an excess fare must be bought before you board a train, unless there are no facilities to do so, otherwise a full first class fare is due.

I agree that applies where there is PF and best practice on any train but I have seen posters on TPE in 1st class that say something like:-

This carriage is for 1st class customers only-other customers are welcome to upgrade their ticket with the conductor.

There is also an announcement from time to time that advises the same.

I think this is good as sometimes if travelling on a standard ticket I like to see how busy the train is before purchasing an upgrade-though on most TPE services that's most of the time!

 

[swadbus]

Just out of interest how much did you eventually pay?

We were charged around £18 (and a few pence) for each of us to upgrade. I'm not sure how that figure came about, but we certainly didn't argue at that price!

 

[1V53]

We were charged around £18 (and a few pence) for each of us to upgrade. I'm not sure how that figure came about, but we certainly didn't argue at that price!

Not sure what they did there, will have to have a play with the Avantix. What did your ticket say? They clearly haven't done it how it should be done, but ultimately you are rail staff and in fairness we all tend to bend things a bit in cases where the official line is a bit strict!