Priv Questions

[dan_atki]

Is that not fare dodging effectively?

See a related post I made at: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=235726#post235726

 

[class 313]

See a related post I made at: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=235726#post235726

So it is but its their fault for not checking?

 

[dan_atki]

Well there have been times I've got on a train without ticket issueing facilities existing before and waited for the guard to finish their duties and asked for a priv to wherever I'm going and some are reluctant to sell me it. Some only do to get me through ticket barriers, but in the case where I finished a journey at an unmanned station (well at the time I was travelling anyway) they just said 'oh don't worry about it'.

I look at it in the sense that I'm prepared and attempt to buy a ticket and if they won't issue me one then it's them at fault for not protecting revenue as they should. After all if they say 'don't worry about it' I'm not gonna stand there and say 'please just issue me a ticket' am I?

 

[class 313]

This is true, fair enough.

 

[glynn80]

So it is but its their fault for not checking?

I believe it is the case of if an authorised person has allowed you to travel on the train they are in charge of then you are not fare dodging, as Dan says you are always prepared to purchase a ticket if required, but I for one usually check with the guard before boarding or approach them as soon as I can just so it doesn't seem as if I am trying to not have to purchase a ticket.

 

[First class]

Is that not fare dodging effectively?

It is if you carry out what I said... but tbh if you go to the barriers at a Merseyrail station and simply show it to them, and they let you through, then I would take that to mean an authorised person has permitted you to travel.

 

[First class]

Does anyone know whether it is possible to have a TOC Privilege Card and receive a residential pass for travelling to/from your work/home station?

For example, I will be working in Liverpool Central, but will have to commute from Runcorn (Mainline). That journey is by London Midland/Virgin, and I am employed by Merseyrail, (or will be soon), and I can't use my TOC Privilege Card for non-leisure journeys...

 

[glynn80]

Does anyone know whether it is possible to have a TOC Privilege Card and receive a residential pass for travelling to/from your work/home station?

For example, I will be working in Liverpool Central, but will have to commute from Runcorn (Mainline). That journey is by London Midland/Virgin, and I am employed by Merseyrail, (or will be soon), and I can't use my TOC Privilege Card for non-leisure journeys...

The policy depends on the individual TOC I believe. BR used to give them to all staff commuting into London I was told and on a discretionary basis to other employees. Currently my TOC only allows you to get a rebate for your season ticket (£52 per month). I know NXEC have issued some residential passes after BR ceased to exist but its best to check with the HR department of the TOC you work for.

 

[Mojo]

For example, I will be working in Liverpool Central, but will have to commute from Runcorn (Mainline). That journey is by London Midland/Virgin, and I am employed by Merseyrail, (or will be soon), and I can't use my TOC Privilege Card for non-leisure journeys...

My Mum is safeguarded TfL staff (now retired) and bought a season ticket for work with her Priv (I can only use mine for education seasons or leisure travel). Are the rules different for TOCNE?

 

[glynn80]

My Mum is safeguarded TfL staff (now retired) and bought a season ticket for work with her Priv (I can only use mine for education seasons or leisure travel). Are the rules different for TOCNE?

No TOCNE also are entitled to a 75% discounted season tikcet (except First Scotrail staff) from their residential station to their place of work.

 

[First class]

Thanks for the info- do you know whether Merseyrail/Northern give you the TOC card as soon as you start or make you wait like ATW ?

 

[glynn80]

Thanks for the info- do you know whether Merseyrail/Northern give you the TOC card as soon as you start or make you wait like ATW ?

All TOCs require to of worked 1 month before you gain your Priv Card. ATOC do have all the information about TOCNE cards under the RST section of their website.

 

[First class]

All TOCs require to of worked 1 month before you gain your Priv Card. ATOC do have all the information about TOCNE cards under the RST section of their website.

I meant the free travel pass on Merseyrail/Northern only sorry, not the ATOC one... I've read all the stuff on ATOC and don't say anything about the one your operator issues.

 

[glynn80]

I meant the free travel pass on Merseyrail/Northern only sorry, not the ATOC one... I've read all the stuff on ATOC and don't say anything about the one your operator issues.

My TOC did require me to work for 1 month before I got my free travel privilages also but I can't speak for Merseyrail/Northern. Their HR department will be the best people for Merseyrail specific questions. If your moving from another TOC though I believe you just keep the Priv you help previously and it is transferred through to your new TOC.

 

[First class]

Ah, thats interesting. Hopefully I should retain PRIV facilities then, I was thinking maybe I would have to wait another month before I became eligible for the priv.

 

[yorkie]

Is that not fare dodging effectively?

I guess, if you tried to hide the fact it was undated, and/or refused to date it, then yes. But if you ask the guard and the guard says "no that's fine", I wouldn't say it's "dodging" - there is no dodge there. A dodge is deliberately avoiding something.

Another thing I find is, if combining tickets on a train that does not call, if you ask the guard if you can use that combination, they usually say "yes that's fine". Obviously you need to ask before the train sets off, or before the non-stop section. e.g. York-Grantham plus Grantham-London on a train that is York-Donny-London, you'd have to hope the guard comes round before Donny to ask (or seek the guard). If they say yes then you save yourself having to change trains.

 

[1D53]

Another thing I find is, if combining tickets on a train that does not call, if you ask the guard if you can use that combination, they usually say "yes that's fine". Obviously you need to ask before the train sets off, or before the non-stop section. e.g. York-Grantham plus Grantham-London on a train that is York-Donny-London, you'd have to hope the guard comes round before Donny to ask (or seek the guard). If they say yes then you save yourself having to change trains.

Yeah, I've never normally had a problem either as long as I've asked. In many different circumstances such as Metrocard + Steeton & Silsden - Skipton ticket on a train express between Keighley and Skipton (not stopping at Steeton). Also had acceptance on TPE between Manchester and Huddersfield with a GMPTE Day Ranger and a Greenfield - Hudders ticket!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I meant the free travel pass on Merseyrail/Northern only sorry, not the ATOC one... I've read all the stuff on ATOC and don't say anything about the one your operator issues.

I think Merseyrail use the photo id card for free travel, like Northern do, so it is straight away.

 

[First class]

Thanks for the info- one final question, if I show my Merseyrail ID to a Northern guard in say Lincoln or Newcastle, is it likely the guard will be aware of the arrangement between the two companies, or could it be setting me up for some problems?

 

[dan_atki]

Extremely likely they'd know - after all they'll know their own free travel arrangements

 

[91101]

It depends, my company has a reciprical arangement with NXEC, but there's various guards who don't have the slightest clue about it!

 

[dan_atki]

I think reciprocal arrangements are harder to deal with than just a general company free travel pass. I believe you refer to FCC's arrangement with NXEC - the thing about that (and hence why there is a difference) is that you are using a First Group pass on a National Express service and such reciprocal arrangements aren't documented anywhere other than at head office (or so it would seem).

On the other hand you get other combinations like EMT/SWT, Southern/Southeastern/London Midland, CrossCountry/Arriva Trains Wales, Northern/Merseyrail where the TOCs are owned by the same company and allow travel on each others' services - more staff are likely to know about this because more staff are more likely to use this than a reciprocal arrangement. Also it's much easier to find out that an EMT pass is valid on a SWT service than it is to find that an FCC pass gives you unlimited travel on NXEC at weekends.

Now, normal advice would be take a printout from the company's site ready to show on board staff who may question it - sadly such facts aren't documented on sites so the best advice I can suggest is if you are making the use of a reciprocal arrangement (rather than going on another of your parent comapny's undertakings - but can still be useful in such cases) and you get stopped then politely request the guard/RPI contacts their manager, who should be aware and, if they're aren't aware then they should contact their manager and so on until someone is aware. If it turns out nobody believes you and you are forced to buy a ticket then keep it and then send it back to your TOC's Customer Services and put in for a refund on it.

 

[Mojo]

Most TOC passess have the list of operators on which they are valid (and/or their logos) on the front and/or back

 

[91101]

Dan_Atki, you're correct, and a rather confrontational Edinburgh guard had to eat their words when they rang control and were given the precise detals of the arrangement.

I was actually recently asked by a friend of mine who works for Northern at Newcastle as to his validity on Merseyrail, and he wasn't aware of the arrangement in place.

Mojo, that only applies within the same owning group, ie, First group travel cards have the logo's on of all First group companies. But the FCC one, despite being valid on NXEA, NXEC and EMT doesnt have those on.

 

[dan_atki]

Mojo, that only applies within the same owning group, ie, First group travel cards have the logo's on of all First group companies. But the FCC one, despite being valid on NXEA, NXEC and EMT doesnt have those on.

Actually First Group passes are an exception (and don't display all logos) because First doesn't allow unlimited travel on each others' services for some reason I'm sure we'll never know...

I guess it comes down to which companies you can have free unlimited travel on (Thameslink passes also showed both South Central and Thames Trains logos, and then were changed at franchise changeovers to just have the Southern logo on). FCC passes are only valid on NXEA, NXEC, and EMT services with heavy restrictions (i.e. travel with NXEA and EMT must be residential only and on a certain section of route).

 

[Mintona]

I was actually recently asked by a friend of mine who works for Northern at Newcastle as to his validity on Merseyrail, and he wasn't aware of the arrangement in place.

I have used my pass on Merseyrail many a time, but until reading another thread, I had no idea it was valid on the Tyne and Wear Metro. So whilst I would suspect most people on the dark side know about the Merseyrail agreement, they might not all.

 

[Tom C]

despite being valid on NXEA, NXEC and EMT doesnt have those on.

NXEA?

I know that ex WAGN staff could apply for a residential pass to use c2c, Silverlink and "one" but I havn't seen anything that says we can use East Anglia with a FCC staff pass unless its something like Kings Lynn to Cambridge.

Also on the FCC staff pass it mentions that you can use the pass for residential, duty and leisure purposes but on EMT its only for residential and duty as it is for NXEC during the week and both are restricted to certain destinations (Bedford and Newark I think)

 

[dan_atki]

I have only seen the FCC reciprocal arrangements online in one place.

Credit to FlyingCucumber on RailChat for this (edited slightly to be up-to-date with TOC names and use of full station names):

NXEC
Free standard class travel on complete network on Saturday and Sunday on presentation of a Valid Staff (employee and dependants) Travel Pass.
Free standard class Residental travel between Newark Northgate and London Kings Cross Mondays-Fridays on presentation of a Valid (employee) Staff Travel Pass.

EMT
Free standard class Residental travel between London St Pancras and Bedford on presentation of a valid (employee) Staff Travel Pass, Monday to Sunday.*

Southern
Free standard class Residental travel between London Bridge and stations that mirror the Thameslink route on presentation of a valid Southern special pass.

NXEA
Free standard class travel between Kings Lynn and Cambridge on presentation of a valid (employee) Staff Travel Pass, Monday to Sunday.

* It is generally accepted that FCC staff who live north of Bedford can also get free residential travel (some have said here upto Leicester) however I think as is with the case of Southern, a special pass may have to be held and the arrangement is done on a case by case basis.

Residential travel is defined as travel between the employee's local station and their workplace for the purpose of commuting only.

 

[class 313]

Are FCC Privs/Staff Passes valid on the Sleeper from Euston?

 

[dan_atki]

Certainly not for free travel (and nor is the First boxes pass IIRC) - FCC passes only allow free travel on FCC + the reciprocal arrangements above.

As for TOCNE Privs - I believe you get a discount on seated sleeper tickets only (FO and SO types) and not on a berth but am not 100% sure on this.